After taking EJs class at CEDIA, I learned that my clients fall into the top .1% of wealth ($20M+ net worth) and my approach is still Lutron lighting & shading, Sonos, URC TC for handheld remotes and simple integration with Lutron plus NEST or Lutron for HVAC, networking, surveillance, etc.

All my clients have or have had homes with Crestron, Savant, etc. and all are looking for something simpler (not necessarily less expensive) just something simpler and more reliable where the entire system isn't impacted if the control system has an issue.

My formula for Sonos in video zones is simple and has worked perfectly for years.  I just use a Niles speaker switch that's triggered using 12v from the AVR or control system.  When the TV is off, the speaker switch defaults to Sonos, when the TV is switched on, the speaker switch changes to the amp or AVR for the TV.

This required duplicate amplification (amp for Sonos & amp for video), but it's bullet-proof.  I'm just getting started with the AudioControl network matrix amps and starting to test switching between Sonos & TV audio in 2ch zones by taking digital audio out the TV and Sonos and then using IP control of the amp to switch inputs and set volume to preset level for Sonos.

My clients can do 99.9% of what they want to do from a Lutron keypad, URC remote and iPad in iPort dock for Sonos control.  About the only thing else they might pull up on the ipads is the camera app, but I'll also often have the DVR/NVR available on 1-2 main TVs or through all the TV is a HDMI matrix is involved.

URC Total Control can integrate with all the AV, Lutron, HVAC, Cameras, etc. but to this point I haven't even showed a client how to use the TC app.  Total control just runs in the background doing stuff like making sure all the TVs and Music are turned off when they press the "Away" button on a Lutron keypad.

Instead of basing my business on high-end integration and systems with all the bells-and-whistles, I've developed a reputation for installing easy to use and very reliable systems with a big emphasis on craftsmanship and attention to detail.

Fist bump!

We used to install lots Elan Z and S systems. We would integrate security, cameras, music, video, lighting, doorbell/paging, etc. And they would work until something broke....physically...like a power supply for a Via panel, or the phone board on a Z600. We replace the broken part and it continues to work for many more years. We have replaced quite a few of those 10-20 year old systems in the last few years that still functioned 100%, but the clients wanted something new, or something that was not going to be compatible with the legacy hardware/interfaces, etc. Those old systems ran like the energizer bunny.

With current solutions, there is no way we can install a comparable system and expect it to continue to work for anywhere near that long without some kind of intervention. I guess that creates more service revenue, but I would much rather install another half dozen more systems in a year than spend that time fixing crap. :)

Engineering solutions with the least potential for service calls works out better for everyone if you ask me. I use the "Easy" vs. "Simple" contrast a lot. They are 2 different ball games in my mind.

I come off as an arrogant prick in a lot of threads. Its genuinely not my intention, but confidence often comes out as arrogance. Especially online.

I'm not sure why anyone would need my approval to sell what they want to sell. And I still dont understand how I'm doing someone a disservice by selling them a system that does more, sounds better, and is more flexible than sonos.

In response to Drewski300's questions:

1. How do customers integrate overhead speakers with Sonos and TV's in many rooms? This isn't easy with Sonos and frankly you have to rely on a science
experiment of parts and pieces will fail eventually.

dcci: Our recommendation engine specifies a Playbar for the front speakers and in-ceiling surrounds powered by a Sonos Connect.

[Link: sonos.custhelp.com]

2. What if you want super clean aesthetics? The Sonos Playbar looks great and for the masses it's an awesome option. But not for everyone.

dcci: You are making my point - looks great and for the masses, it's an awesome option.

Locating equipment remotely for every room requires something to control it. What if we went with traditional AVR for every room with a TV, built in speakers, Sonos? That would either require hiding equipment everywhere. That isn't great for service.

dcci: Our system specifies a local video source only, or no source other than a TV's streaming services and ATSC tuner. No custom control - nor HDMI distribution, BTW. For Sonos, our system specifies a central location, which gets a LAN drop, an appropriate sized gigabit Ethernet switch, and the appropriate number of Sonos Connect Amps (or MusicCast Amps or HEOS Amps).

3. 3 years ago when we did the project, Ring doorbells SUCKED in MN. They are better now and there are other equally as good options. But this job required a keypad at the front door because they had an automated multipoint door lock system. Ring or Doorbird wouldn't be great for that.

dcci: Our approach is not for every customer nor home - just many

4. This customer had at least 10 DTV boxes. He had spread sheets where he managed recordings. After our install, we had a fully matrixed home.

dcci: Our approach is not for every customer nor home - just many

I opened up the app earlier and started playing. I plugged in my Play:5 and went to change the room name on it. The app said it needed to update, update note just said it had bug fixes. Now, the thumbs up and thumbs down in pandora do not work. I get an "Operation Failed" error message. Anyone else seeing the same thing?

I agree with that statement 100%.

Yet in a system I looked at recently, the client had a C4 system that pretty much did music and one room of surround. No lights, no climate, nothing more. Then two other television rooms have Sonos PlayBars. In this case, I think they would have been better suited to an all Sonos system, since getting music to play on those PlayBars can't be done with C4.

The new app is terrible! From the very first second of login/setup. NUvo still rocks! Shit even music cast is better

I believe Thumbs up/down are exclusive to Pandora

C4 can get music to play on those speakers. its just extremely limited with the API that Sonos lets C4 use nowadays.

With ANY sonos device we can Select a Favorite(MySonos now) to start playing, or a Playlist. We can also control Volume.

the big problem we run into now is that the native services in the C4 processors are full 2-way drivers... Its hard for folks to go back and forth.

A better option for a C4 based system now is a Triad One Amp with a Microsat 2.0 Speakerbar. A little bit more than a Playbar... but the amp gives us C4 Control ports, Great sound, and all the C4 streaming services.

Nobody is saying anything about not selling integrated systems. Sonos is a solution for SOME who do not want integrated systems. It is not about the integrator wants, it is about the client's wants. I sell push systems first, but if it is not right path I choose another one.

And the real benefits of an integrated system for most homes are . . . what? And how do those compare to the frustration when it doesn't work?

I am talking 1,500 - 5,000 sq ft homes.

Most homes? is that like most customers? Because we can lump them together? Or is that a generalization?

I have seen 2,000 sq/ft homes get fully integrated systems and 12,000 sq/ft homes get basic stuff...because with a open mind and not profiling we did a real needs assessment. It has nothing to do with the size, or the price.

The benefits are what a customer thinks they are not what we do.

I am in an ultra luxury market, I am standing in 10,000 sq. Foot house as I write this. Which will be automated. The is also a primarily 2nd home location. Some clients love to hit a button on their way out the door and know everything will be turned off because they won’t be back for months. Some enjoy logging into the house remotely to set the heat and hot tub. Some don’t care and hire others to do this for them. We’ll cater to either client.

One client might just want a a Sonos system and love the work we did. Then tell their tech friends about us. And they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I’ve personally handed off close to a dozen 6 figure projects and a seven figure project this year. And a few dozen small projects ($75k and below).

Fair enough. My point is that I'm afraid you're in the minority. I think many/most integrators lead with over-built approaches, vs. need/want gathering fro their clients. Not necessarily out of greed, either, although that's a factor.