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Daisy chaining IR conncting blocks.
This thread has 10 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Thursday April 27, 2017 at 10:14
audvid
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Couple of questions.
I have Xantech 791-44 and 789-44
and multiple IR recievers such has xantech dl85k and two more in various rooms.

1. Can I connect the IR out of the 791 to the IR input (not via the IR in 3.5 but by connecting -screwing the wires in to the two wires marked ground and IR in on the black wiring block)? I will connect power separately or should I use the same 12 volts, so that they both have same ground? I have a large 12 volts and can use same 12 volt source for both.

2. Is there a good IR blaster, that I can blast IR to the entire equipment rack?

3. I do have an IR LED blasting right now but it is not powerful enough. Should I connect the output of all four 3.5 mm output jacks to one IR LED?

4. Xantech 49010d Designer Micro Link(tm) Infrared Receiver is not working properly. I have to HOLD the button for a sec or two for it to react. I bought several non xantech cheap IR receivers from amazon, such as this (link)and a monoprice. None of these work. Only Xantech brand seems to be working. Even the dl85k is not working reliably. It works 80% of the time, but some times, it reacts with the feed back light but the tv channel does not change. I had older Xantech receivers, which worked very well. Only the newer xantech lcd proof models seem to be giving trouble. Suggestions please?

Thank you.
Post 2 made on Thursday April 27, 2017 at 12:34
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On April 27, 2017 at 10:14, audvid said...
Couple of questions.
I have Xantech 791-44 and 789-44
and multiple IR recievers such has xantech dl85k and two more in various rooms.

1. Can I connect the IR out of the 791 to the IR input (not via the IR in 3.5 but by connecting -screwing the wires in to the two wires marked ground and IR in on the black wiring block)? I will connect power separately or should I use the same 12 volts, so that they both have same ground? I have a large 12 volts and can use same 12 volt source for both.

There are eleven IR outs, so "the IR out" isn't dead nuts clear, but I suppose you mean one of the outputs intended for LEDs.
The 3.5mm connector and the ground, 12V and signal are common. That is, that's just two different physical ways to connect an IR sensor to the 789-44 and the 781-44.

If you connect one of the 791's LED outputs to the IR input... of what you don't say, but you probably mean another 791... then things might work and might not. To cascade 791s you want to use the HIGH IR OUT to go to another 791-44 and the IR RCVR to connect either an IR sensor or the HIGH IR OUT of another 791-44.

2. Is there a good IR blaster, that I can blast IR to the entire equipment rack?

I have no idea. I don't think blasting the entire equipment rack is a good idea, especially when its operation can be brought to its knees by the end user, say, putting a DVD case on top of the DVD player and sticking out an inch or two.

3. I do have an IR LED blasting right now but it is not powerful enough. Should I connect the output of all four 3.5 mm output jacks to one IR LED?

Not powerful enough? You're coming to a conclusion without knowing for sure tha power is the idea. You have the symptom that it doesn't control all units, but it might be plenty powerful enough. I've had ambient light interfere with LEDs that were powerful enough on the equipment, but not when backed away from the equipment.

Stick an LED on each item.

Should you connect four output jacks to one LED? Let's look at what's in a 781-44 (which is what you're now talking about).

The 781-44 has two interconnected sections. The 12V, ground, and IR IN provide connections for a sensor.

The other section is the IR output section. There's a resistor between the IR IN and each LED output (4 resistors total). The resistor a) keeps the LED from blowing, which it would do if connected to the IR IN voltage, and b) is for current sharing so that each LED gets about the same output current.

If you connect an LED to all four outputs, you'd be doing the equivalent of dividing the value of the resistors by four. If you really want more current, get a bunch of resistors and an ammeter and check how much current you get with different values of resistance. Note carefully at what current level the LED turns into smoke and use at least twice that resistance. (The resistor value will be different for blink-IRs and IR-only emitters.)

Re the following: don't mix brands of LED stuff. For my money, there's Xantech, there's Niles (which I don't like as well), and there's crap from monoprice and others where the price is the main thing that works. It works for the seller!

4. Xantech 49010d Designer Micro Link(tm) Infrared Receiver is not working properly. I have to HOLD the button for a sec or two for it to react.

Again, you're seeing a symptom. Have you tested this with a phone or other IR sensing device and a timer so you KNOW you don't get an output from the receiver until an entire second, or two, have passed? This is a truly bizarre symptom!

Sudden thought: how much current is being drawn from your power supply for what you're doing? That could be a problem. Xantech used to have current draw in its specs but I haven't looked at their data for years.

I bought several non xantech cheap IR receivers from amazon, such as this (link)and a monoprice. None of these work. Only Xantech brand seems to be working. Even the dl85k is not working reliably. It works 80% of the time, but some times, it reacts with the feed back light but the tv channel does not change. I had older Xantech receivers, which worked very well. Only the newer xantech lcd proof models seem to be giving trouble. Suggestions please?

See if Xantech has a white paper outlining how to design systems and follow it to the letter. IR is irritating since you can't see it and you can't know what's happening -- you can just see the symptoms. Following exact advice helps make things work.

You're very welcome!
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 3 made on Thursday April 27, 2017 at 14:59
Brad Humphrey
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1) Those IR receivers you linked to on amazon.com are complete junk. In addition to them being crappy to begin with, they are both 5V IR receivers - they are not really compatible with Xantech's standard 12v system. So not surprising they don't work at all.

2) IR blasters are very hard to setup correctly. Meaning they have to be installed in such a way, as to face all the equipment you are trying to control. You say the equipment is in a rack, unless you have put the IR blaster in a position 5-10 feet in front of the rack where it can actually send signal to everything, how is it you expect this to work?

3) You wire all the IR receivers together on the input terminals of the 791-44 (+12VDC, GND, IR IN). Plug your power supply in (this block should be the ONLY place a power supply is plugged in).

4) Your IR emitters will plug into the outputs to each device. You have 10 outputs. How many devices are you trying to control? You use dual emitters on some outputs will double the amount of components you control. They would make 20 devices. If you have more than that, you are seriously using the wrong approach to control in this setup.

5) Besides there 100% not needing to be a reason for you to be using a 781-44 when you have a 791-44, the actual problems would have to be diagnosed after you have the setup correct. If there are any issues at all after you get it setup correctly.

[NOTE]: Make sure you are using the correct power supply for the 791-44. 782ERGPS which supplies 1000mAh. NOT the 781ERGPS which only supplies 200mAh (that is for a regular 781-44).
OP | Post 4 made on Friday April 28, 2017 at 09:12
audvid
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Thanks for useful reply Brad:

On April 27, 2017 at 14:59, Brad Humphrey said...
1) Those IR receivers you linked to on amazon.com are complete junk. In addition to them being crappy to begin with, they are both 5V IR receivers - they are not really compatible with Xantech's standard 12v system. So not surprising they don't work at all.

Good point. I did not realize they were 5V receivers, until you pointed it out.


On April 27, 2017 at 14:59, Brad Humphrey said...

2) IR blasters are very hard to setup correctly. Meaning they have to be installed in such a way, as to face all the equipment you are trying to control. You say the equipment is in a rack, unless you have put the IR blaster in a position 5-10 feet in front of the rack where it can actually send signal to everything, how is it you expect this to work?

Yes, I am aware about the 5 to 10 feet and aiming and about dual emitters, placing of emmiters etc. I do have led emitters but I want to get rid of clutter and just use a blaster, if possible.  I have one IR "blaster" working now at 7 ft, connected to  IR Hi out - but it does not work at 20 ft. I prefer to use at 20 ft, if possible.


On April 27, 2017 at 14:59, Brad Humphrey said...

3) You wire all the IR receivers together on the input terminals of the 791-44 (+12VDC, GND, IR IN). Plug your power supply in (this block should be the ONLY place a power supply is plugged in).

This is what I did.
The problem is - once I added an LCD TV, the older ir receivers cause the entire ir system to jam. The newer lcd proof ir receivers are not working as well as the old ones.






On April 27, 2017 at 14:59, Brad Humphrey said...
4) Your IR emitters will plug into the outputs to each device. You have 10 outputs. How many devices are you trying to control? You use dual emitters on some outputs will double the amount of components you control. They would make 20 devices. If you have more than that, you are seriously using the wrong approach to control in this setup.

I am trying to get rid of the clutter of using individual IR emitters.


On April 27, 2017 at 14:59, Brad Humphrey said...
5) Besides there 100% not needing to be a reason for you to be using a 781-44 when you have a 791-44, the actual problems would have to be diagnosed after you have the setup correct. If there are any issues at all after you get it setup correctly.

I was going to use the 781 with the DL85k receiver and connect the output of this to the input of 791. Because, once LCD tv is on, all the IR receivers connected to 791 no longer work.
I am not sure if this is the best strategy.. I am not sure that I would even do this.. just thinking out loud. After having written above, I am probably not going to use this strategy.


On 1493319573, Brad Humphrey said..
[NOTE]: Make sure you are using the correct power supply for the 791-44. 782ERGPS which supplies 1000mAh. NOT the 781ERGPS which only supplies 200mAh (that is for a regular 781-44).

Good point about power supply. I am using 1000 mA power supply.
OP | Post 5 made on Friday April 28, 2017 at 09:20
audvid
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I am clarifying my prior question:
When I mean old IR receivers - I don't have all the model numbers but these are all xantech - the J box type and the peep hole type (the brass tube kind) but they are not lcd/cfl proof.

The main problem I am having is - I now have an lcd tv in one room and the old ir receiver in that room no longer works. I am trying to work around that. i bought two new LCD proof ir receivers, for that room:

1. Xantech 49010d Designer Micro Link(tm) Infrared Receiver is not working properly. I have to HOLD the button for a sec or two for it to react. Just a tap on the remote would work fine with older IR receivers but not with this unit.

2. DL85k is not working reliably. It works 80% (maybe only 60%?) of the time. Frequently, the DL85K does react with the feed back light but the tv channel does not change. I swap back to the old IR receiver and every thing works 100% of the time - with instant exectution.

Only the newer xantech lcd proof models seem to be giving trouble. I can't be alone with this problem. I am wondering if other forum membes have found a great lcd proof IR receiver, which works 100% of the time and without needing press and hold of remote button.

Suggestions please?
Thank you.

Last edited by audvid on April 28, 2017 12:09.
OP | Post 6 made on Friday April 28, 2017 at 12:14
audvid
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4. Xantech 49010d Designer Micro Link(tm) Infrared Receiver is not working properly. I have to HOLD the button for a sec or two for it to react.

Again, you're seeing a symptom. Have you tested this with a phone or other IR sensing device and a timer so you KNOW you don't get an output from the receiver until an entire second, or two, have passed? This is a truly bizarre symptom!

Yes. it seems an unusual symptom. The problem is: lets say I am changing the channel - with old IR receiver (xantech non lcd proof), I can just tap on the channel up button and the channel on the DVR changes.
But with the 49010d - i actually have to HOLD the channel up button for longer than I am used to (and like).. the reaction to the button pressing happens only if I hold the button for a while - I can't say whether it is 1 sec or not.. I know that I don't like to have to do so - especially, because the older ones worked perfectly well.
Post 7 made on Friday April 28, 2017 at 13:06
Brad Humphrey
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On April 28, 2017 at 09:12, audvid said...
I was going to use the 781 with the DL85k receiver and connect the output of this to the input of 791.

You are not understanding how a 781-44 (789-44) block works, there is no reason to do what you mentioned.
The 781-44 is a passive device, the power supply plugs in and it supplies power & GND to the +12VDC & GND terminals of the 781-44; and the +12VDC sleeve & GND ring of the TRS connector. You can do the same thing by splicing the power wires into the same wires on the IR receivers, bypassing the block. The IR emitter outputs come from the GND & IR IN connectors of the block, thru biasing resistors.
So what you said you were wanting to do above, is the same thing as connecting directly to the 791-44; but thru an extra resistor on the IR OUT, dropping the IR signal some.

If you take the time to dress your wiring nicely, the IR emitters usually do not look bad on the equipment. This is also 4x better as far as system reliability is concerned, so much can go wrong in trying to IR blast a rack of equipment; I don't have the space to type it all. It's just not a good idea.

I know Xantech says the DL85 is CFL & plasma proof. It is a lie. The DL85 is a great general purpose IR receiver but if you want actual CFL & plasma compatibility, you have to get the DL95 - it is bad ass and works every time.
Note: If the DL85 (or even the DL95) is installed in such a way as to have a light source with a bunch of IR shining right into it... it's not going to work, period. Nothing on Earth will. So make 100% sure that you minimize this by placing the IR receiver in the correct spot. You might even need to build a little shield by wrapping some electrical tape around the IR receiver (with the lip overhanging) to block light from the sides. This will narrow the window of what the IR receiver can pick up.
Note 2: The 490-10 is an old IR receiver that absolutely is not CFL or plasma proof.

It sounds like your whole problem you are trying to get pass, is a very old (or cheap) LCD TV. That is using a CFL backlight. The only solution might be to replace the TV with a more modern LED backlit model, that will not interfere with IR signals.
Again, look at the room and where you have the IR receiver placed. Make sure there are not any CFL lights in the room. Make sure the IR receiver isn't positioned where it can see the front of the TV.

Also, it sounds like you do not want to spend the proper money to make this work. This stuff is NOT cheap, not if it is done correctly.
Using an IR blaster is a lot cheaper than a bunch of IR emitters but it is a BS way to do it. So much can interfere and have problems trying to use a blaster, it just is not a professional way to do things.
All these IR receivers you keep trying to use are either cheap BS (like those Amazon ones) or the lower models from Xantech (which only work in ideal situations). Yes the DL95 is a LOT more expensive. It is so for a reason and maybe what you will need to overcome the interference you are having. This again assumes everything else is good = 1) If the TV is bad and throwing out so much interference as to flood anything you put in the room; sorry, going to have to replace the TV. 2) All other sources of interference have been looked at in the room and made sure you have everything pointed correctly to avoid as much interference as possible.

[edit]: Oh... another elephant in the room of this zoo = Why are you using IR repeaters for a rack of equipment? What control system are you using? The cost of a 'good' IR repeater system is about the same price as the RF base stations of most entry level control systems (URC, RTi, Harmony, etc.) and you get a lot more features & expandability.

Last edited by Brad Humphrey on April 28, 2017 13:14.
Post 8 made on Friday April 28, 2017 at 13:56
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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Brad's posts are totally accurate. There are several more details you can learn to understand how to never go wrong.

In my post I missed stating to be sure all components operate at the same voltage. My time of experimenting with brands other than Xantech is so far behind me that it didn't even occur to me to point that out. Another reason not to combine brands is this: if something goes wrong, which manufacturer do you call, and which one will admit the problem is their fault?

Those several other details are combined in the 791-44's manual. Download it, read it, take notes, and obey how it tells you to figure things out. You won't go wrong. It's not easy to understand at first, but you may be surprised to find that it's as simple as a few facts and arithmetical addition.


(Actually, though, I've spent ten minutes reading it and though I see current draw specs for many many pieces of gear, I haven't seen any such spec for the 791-44 itself!)
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 9 made on Friday April 28, 2017 at 14:10
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On April 28, 2017 at 13:06, Brad Humphrey said...
Note: If the DL85 (or even the DL95) is installed in such a way as to have a light source with a bunch of IR shining right into it... it's not going to work, period. Nothing on Earth will. So make 100% sure that you minimize this by placing the IR receiver in the correct spot.

A dozen years ago I installed a system for a client in a room that faced due south onto the ocean in Malibu. We experienced some problems with lack of IR control. (We were using just straight IR.)

After a couple of days I realized that as the sun went across the sky, for about two hours there was terrific glare off the ocean... thousands of tiny waves making thousands of tiny momentary reflections of sunlight as the waves moved... and each reflection having some IR energy.

Sure enough, we closed the curtains before that time and all was well. If we tried to close the curtains after that time started, well... they had Makita shade hardware and it was operated by IR, so, no go.

The things we run into!

It sounds like your whole problem you are trying to get pass, is a very old (or cheap) LCD TV. That is using a CFL backlight. The only solution might be to replace the TV with a more modern LED backlit model, that will not interfere with IR signals.

Yup. I use a simple Xantech block in the bedroom to control the satellite receiver in the living room, and for the first five minutes after the TV is turned on, the feedback light is lit and there's no control of the satellite receiver.

Also, it sounds like you do not want to spend the proper money to make this work. This stuff is NOT cheap, not if it is done correctly.

Bingo, Ah, So, and Hallelujah.

Using an IR blaster is a lot cheaper than a bunch of IR emitters but it is a BS way to do it. So much can interfere and have problems trying to use a blaster, it just is not a professional way to do things.

"Everybody sit down. Nobody walk anywhere. Get the friggin' Irish Wolfhound out of the room. Okay? Good. Now I'll adjust the volume."
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 10 made on Saturday April 29, 2017 at 10:00
audvid
Founding Member
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"Also, it sounds like you do not want to spend the proper money to make this work. This stuff is NOT cheap, not if it is done correctly."
Is this comment really necessary?

I am only asking technical questions. Some of which, you Brad, have answered well. Like the 5 volts, or the CFL TV.. And your comment about DL85 being not as good as DL95, might well be a good one.. and that 490-10 is not a good unit, seems accurate.

But there is so much of unnecessary comments from you and other guy, which waste your time and offer no technical value.
I do have many IR emitters, which I would prefer to discard and go with the blaster. I am not asking whether or not this is a good idea. I am not even suggesting that it is universally a better idea for others. It is simply a personal preference, for MY personal situation. For example, some of my equipment, including my Datasat processor and Wolf Cinema DCX 1000i projector both have IR input jacks, which I could but don't use - I just don't like risking that equipment, with an electrical connection from a $100 IR block. I am digressing.. Again, this discussion is not necessary.

I asked about the "more power" question - because my current "blaster LED" is working at 7 ft and not at 20 ft.. Considering that most remotes work just fine at 20 ft, I was hoping i would get a technical suggestion about getting a new blaster or using my existing LED blaster for 20 ft blast.

"It sounds like your whole problem you are trying to get pass, is a very old (or cheap) LCD TV. That is using a CFL backlight. ". This is a valid and accurate comment. I did not know that the old TV was CFL. It is only a 40" TV. It serves a different/auxillary purpose in that room and I did not see the need to get a new TV and I did not expect Xantech IR receivers to not work as well as their older units, some of which I have had for 20 years and are still working great!

DL95 is NOT a LOT MORE expensive. It was only $20 more. In hind sight, I should have bought that instead but I did not realize it was far superior. I guess I might have to buy that now.. Now that I have had to discard 490-10 and dl85, I am a bit leery about buying and discarding another (DL95). Also, on Xantech site, dl95 is listed as lcd proof and dl85 is listed as cfl/plasma proof. cfl TV - dl85..

"Oh... another elephant in the room of this zoo = Why are you using IR repeaters for a rack of equipment? What control system are you using? The cost of a 'good' IR repeater system is about the same price as the RF base stations of most entry level control systems (URC, RTi, Harmony, etc.) and you get a lot more features & expandability. ".
I use URC 780 because I happen to like it - again, it is just a personal preference - I prefer tractile Vs touch screen - and I prefer to program with CCP because I am some what familiar with it but not an expert at it. Others on this forum have given me help on CCP. In fact, I like it so much that I use two of the 780s and got a 3rd one as spare. I realize they have RF capability but that never really worked well enough for me - it is a discussion I prefer to not get into, at this time. Also, I do prefer to use original remotes some times, in my theatre room, for set up etc. So, I need IR receivers.. but Again, this is distracting/deviating from my original questions.

I did get good and useful answers from Brad. The 5 volts, the CFL, DL95 being better and that all Xantech brand receivers are not made equal (this was very surprising to me!). This is information I did not know and I thank Brad for providing it.

At this point, I don't wish to waste anyone's time and as the originator, I am going to consider this thread closed for my purpose and am going to unsubscribe/exit from it.

Last edited by audvid on April 29, 2017 10:16.
Post 11 made on Saturday April 29, 2017 at 11:51
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On April 29, 2017 at 10:00, audvid said...
But there is so much of unnecessary comments from you and other guy, which waste your time and offer no technical value.

I asked about the "more power" question - because my current "blaster LED" is working at 7 ft and not at 20 ft.. Considering that most remotes work just fine at 20 ft, I was hoping i would get a technical suggestion about getting a new blaster or using my existing LED blaster for 20 ft blast.

If that's what you were hoping for, why didn't you state your reason for asking about more power? I think the way you wrote this failed you because you were not direct.

"It sounds like your whole problem you are trying to get past is a very old (or cheap) LCD TV. That is using a CFL backlight. ". This is a valid and accurate comment.

But Brad had to guess that's what was going on. In doing so, he made a possibly unnecessary comment. You should be a little more accepting of statements that you think might be unnecessary. After all, I didn't make the unnecessary statement that you should not use IR system items that work at different voltages. To me it's TOTALLY unnecessary to say, but Brad said it and he was right.

Take the help that's given and consider how much we're charging!

DL95 is NOT a LOT MORE expensive. It was only $20 more. In hind sight, I should have bought that instead but I did not realize it was far superior. I guess I might have to buy that now.. Now that I have had to discard 490-10 and dl85, I am a bit leery about buying and discarding another (DL95). Also, on Xantech site, dl95 is listed as lcd proof and dl85 is listed as cfl/plasma proof. cfl TV - dl85..

Yeah, it IS helpful to ask before you buy, but maybe you hadn't found us early on.

I use URC 780 because I happen to like it - again, it is just a personal preference - I prefer tractile Vs touch screen - and I prefer to program with CCP because I am some what familiar with it but not an expert at it. Others on this forum have given me help on CCP. In fact, I like it so much that I use two of the 780s and got a 3rd one as spare. I realize they have RF capability but that never really worked well enough for me

In addition to recommending an RF system, we could help you set it up so that it works. You're using a URC remote that works well with an RF system -- but not with all URC RF systems, as at least one is a complete turkey.
- it is a discussion I prefer to not get into, at this time. Also, I do prefer to use original remotes some times, in my theatre room, for set up etc. So, I need IR receivers.. but Again, this is distracting/deviating from my original questions.

I provide URC remotes for customers and I don't put the adjustment buttons onto the daily use remote. But all they have to do is open a cabinet door to use the original remotes for adjustments; there's no need for an IR system.

At this point, I don't wish to waste anyone's time and as the originator, I am going to consider this thread closed for my purpose and am going to unsubscribe/exit from it.

If you should happen to look at this, though, take a moment and hit the "Quote" button as though you were going to respond. You'll see how quoting is done -- not with quotation marks, but with the "pipe" character -- what you get when you hold the Shift button and hit the backslash key.

Thanks for visiting, at least.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw


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