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Topic:
Free Design
This thread has 16 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Thursday February 16, 2017 at 05:17
crosen
Senior Member
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April 2009
1,262
Yes, it's this old topic, once again.

How far do you go developing a scope of work for a potential client's whole home (residential) project as part of the proposal process before you consider that work billable?
If it's not simple, it's not sufficiently advanced.
Post 2 made on Thursday February 16, 2017 at 06:14
thecapnredfish
Senior Member
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February 2008
1,397
3 hours average for most common residential jobs. Architect charged to design it and builder charges to construct it. You happen to be one doing both jobs. Build it into the labor for larger projects.
Post 3 made on Thursday February 16, 2017 at 10:08
MNTommyBoy
Senior Member
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November 2010
1,060
I'm going to have to start charging for the [small], bigger jobs I run into. I've had a recent run of "I'm redoing/finishing this part of my house and I need TV and sound, and I have no budget left. Can you help me?"

I'm going to have to go at least the $199 proposal with maybe a credit on the back end, when installed (basements/remodels etc).

I'm going to copy and paste an email from a friend who went with "the builders guy". This is word for word, have some laughs, and no, I wouldn't normally reply this way to any prospect......

"Tom,
Thanks again for pulling together the bids for me. I ended up going with a guy who my builder uses quite a bit. I do appreciate the effort and I thought you did a good job on the bids. I am in the process of changing jobs (new job in a few weeks) and timing got away from me a bit.

Hope all is well and would love to get out for a beer sometime.

My response....

"So and so,

Because you’re an old friend and a distant cousin-in-law (my mother’s maiden name is Blank), I’m going to be a jerk now. In my best Joe Maurer tone, that’s frustrating. I’m afraid to even ask what “the other guy” is providing, based on all the conversations we had. I guarantee you will not get the quality or service, today and down the road. Good luck on the project… beers, yeah, you owe me a few…"
"There's a big difference between winging it and seeing what happens. Now let's see what happens." ~MacGruber
Post 4 made on Thursday February 16, 2017 at 10:57
Ranger Home
Super Member
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June 2007
3,486
ive never charged for bidding, but we rarely lose any. Actually, i did one time, charge. I was a gut feeling. The offer of course was to credit back the design fee if we got the job. We did get it. So, I say just use your instinct, if it doesnt feel right, explain the design process, the time it takes, the education it takes, the experience it takes and the COST it takes to put together the design. Offer refund on install if you chose that route. If they take issue with it, its not likely a customer you want anyway.
Post 5 made on Thursday February 16, 2017 at 10:57
highfigh
Loyal Member
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September 2004
8,311
If I come in after someone else has provided a proposal, estimate or any other kind of list for the equipment they're considering for a project, I may not do more than say "I can use the same equipment if you think you like it enough to consider moving forward immediately" or I may add some comments like "I don't know why they wanted to include a Sonos when that AVR already has MusicCast" (like I did recently). I had also gone to the house to look at any cable routes that might be needed and give my thoughts on the equipment list from the other dealer- since his friend had already recommended me and this client knows several other past clients (including one who married his ex-wife), he was half-sold on me doing it, but he had gone to the other dealer before I was mentioned.

Sometimes, it depends on who needs design work- if it's an existing client, I don't add as much but if it's a cold call, I'll tell them the cost depends on the complexity of the job and include that in the project unless they're using the design in the future and in that case, I won't be specific in the brands and models, but I will insist on using some kind of conduit for cable runs, to make sure the job doesn't become obsolete before it starts. I also include "This proposal is null and void after XX days".
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 6 made on Thursday February 16, 2017 at 12:13
osiris
Long Time Member
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November 2004
442
I think this is largely driven by the market you serve. If you are operating at the high-end in a major market like New York, Miami, LA, it is much easier to get paid up-front for your design work. If you are in a smaller market, or operating more in builder-driven projects (opposed to design/architecture-driven projects), it is considerably harder, because there is always going to be someone who will do it for free.

I will always meet with a prospect, establish a written low-detail scope of work, and provide ballpark numbers to establish budgets for free. My goal through initial meeting is to establish whether or not I'm a good fit for this project, and establish a working budget agreement with the prospect. Once we are there, then I will go to work on a fully engineered system and proposal. If my radar picks up any sense of price-shopping or I feel the prospect is wishy-washy, then I will present a design retainer fee before providing a full proposal. Fortunately, virtually all of my business for the last few years has been driven by referrals, so I feel like I would have to really screw something up to not get the project if I want it.
Post 7 made on Thursday February 16, 2017 at 15:57
cma
Super Member
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August 2003
3,044
There is a bit of a difference between throwing together a proposal for a theater room and 4 zones of audio vs full on system design.

Either way I would hope this stuff is factored into your cost of business and figured into your pricing. If not, I don't know of too many other trades that work for free. Add on the fact that a client that expects you to work for free probably isn't going to be a client that gets you referrals down the road either.
Post 8 made on Thursday February 16, 2017 at 16:38
Rob Grabon
Founding Member
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November 2001
1,392
Bids are free, your project will cost about x, less than 2 hours to put together. If further detail, meetings, options, etc, than time for design fees.

Also, found it useful to say there's a charge for a house visit when they push for it rather than meet at the shop. Rarely charge, but the time wasters will balk immediately.
Technology is cheap, Time is expensive.
Post 9 made on Thursday February 16, 2017 at 21:37
tomciara
Loyal Member
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Posts:
May 2002
7,958
I know some here won't leave the office without a charge. Whatever your market allows.

In my retail days, I gave time freely on the sales floor to get a new customer. I spend time now in peoples' homes and give them time based on the same principle - they don't know me and need to be comfortable before moving forward.

That being said, I like Osiris and Rob's approach, that you can invest a couple hours in a thumbnail quote. The client needs to make a basic commitment to move forward after that.

It is not off the wall to be honest and say, "I could go back to my desk and take x number of hours to prepare more information for you. I am happy to do whatever it takes to get us moving forward, but to be a good businessman, I have to have a commitment from you if I start to spend that time."
There is no truth anymore. Only assertions. The internet world has no interest in truth, only vindication for preconceived assumptions.
Post 10 made on Friday February 17, 2017 at 09:03
BradKas
Long Time Member
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May 2010
202
Curious to the guys spending 2ish hours what total project size/cost would be?

I am typically investing about 8 hours putting together ballpark scope, proposal & some supporting documentation for 150-250k projects.

Additionally, a few hours will be spent in meetings going over paperwork, getting to know each other, building some trust, etc. So really a 10-12 hour investment.

It hurts when we don't win the job (very rare), but I do feel it's a good investment of our time.

When we get commitment from owner of GC we begin detailed design, drawings, etc.

Seem out of whack to anyone?
Post 11 made on Friday February 17, 2017 at 09:24
tomciara
Loyal Member
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7,958
I don't do projects that size. I can see your time investment would be significant.

I would be uncomfortable losing 8-12 hours on a regular basis, so I imagine some monetary investment on the client side would be necessary.

Maybe you have some ballpark figures for lighting, a/v, etc to test the waters.
There is no truth anymore. Only assertions. The internet world has no interest in truth, only vindication for preconceived assumptions.
Post 12 made on Friday February 17, 2017 at 09:55
cma
Super Member
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August 2003
3,044
On February 17, 2017 at 09:03, BradKas said...
Curious to the guys spending 2ish hours what total project size/cost would be?

I am typically investing about 8 hours putting together ballpark scope, proposal & some supporting documentation for 150-250k projects.

Additionally, a few hours will be spent in meetings going over paperwork, getting to know each other, building some trust, etc. So really a 10-12 hour investment.

It hurts when we don't win the job (very rare), but I do feel it's a good investment of our time.

When we get commitment from owner of GC we begin detailed design, drawings, etc.

Seem out of whack to anyone?

If you have been doing these jobs for a while you should be able to have an initial client meeting and throw out some ball park numbers based on what they are looking for. If you can't or don't it might be worth your time creating a document that you have designed and priced out with various levels of systems so that you can throw a number out in an initial meeting. If the client then wants to move forward you sign a design agreement and collect a small deposit and start the design and proposal package process.
Post 13 made on Friday February 17, 2017 at 10:53
mark65
Long Time Member
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November 2003
450
As stated above, I do think its a market related thing. In our case, design time gets built into every project as part of the bottom line as a percentage of the job. This works well for us as jobs that are 50K and below only take about an hour or two to quote. If we don't get the job, I'm not out a whole lot of money. As the job price increases we get exponentially more profit. Any job over 100K is considered custom and then we setup a design fee up front depending on the complexity of the job.

In our market, we find our competitors will throw something together, close the sale, then change order the customer to death. We prefer to have a system fully specified going into it, even if it means us losing a couple of billable hours of labor, because in the end it's going to be right and we'll have a staisified customer.
Post 14 made on Friday February 17, 2017 at 11:40
Trunk-Slammer -Supreme
Loyal Member
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November 2003
7,454
A fee to cover just your basic costs should be asked for on almost any job that's more than a hang and bang.


There IS a cost involved in you getting to the clients place. Hell, even if you don't think your expertise is worth a small charge, at least charge $25.00 for your gas.


If someone is willing to pay you for your time, they are much more likely to use you to do the job.


The days of free estimates are over, or should be.
Post 15 made on Saturday February 18, 2017 at 17:24
BradKas
Long Time Member
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May 2010
202
On February 17, 2017 at 09:55, cma said...
If you have been doing these jobs for a while you should be able to have an initial client meeting and throw out some ball park numbers based on what they are looking for. If you can't or don't it might be worth your time creating a document that you have designed and priced out with various levels of systems so that you can throw a number out in an initial meeting. If the client then wants to move forward you sign a design agreement and collect a small deposit and start the design and proposal package process.

Thanks for your input!
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