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Topic:
AVR with Zone 2 output with no delay
This thread has 10 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 19:07
chris-L5S
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I have a theater room with a bar at the back. the theater is a 7.2 and i have 4 speakers in the bar. I have a Denon AVR-X3200W for the theater and a Sonos Amp in the Bar. Is there a way to add a delay to the zone 2 or a different receiver that does not have a delay on the zone 2?
TIA
Post 2 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 19:13
goldenzrule
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If you switched to Yamaha Music Cast this would be easy. Technically, you could feed Sonos into Music Cast, but that would be like towing a Ferrari with. Lamborghini
Post 3 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 20:35
Ernie Gilman
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If you want to maintain 7.2 AND have no delay, one solution that comes to mind is an external delay line made for pro audio. I picked one up for thirty bucks a few years ago for use with a church PA system. Delaying the audio that goes to the speakers in the back of the church synchronizes that audio with the audio traveling the hundred feet or so from the front speakers.

This only works if you can get to the line level signal going into the Sonos.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 4 made on Saturday December 17, 2016 at 10:26
highfigh
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On December 16, 2016 at 20:35, Ernie Gilman said...
If you want to maintain 7.2 AND have no delay, one solution that comes to mind is an external delay line made for pro audio. I picked one up for thirty bucks a few years ago for use with a church PA system. Delaying the audio that goes to the speakers in the back of the church synchronizes that audio with the audio traveling the hundred feet or so from the front speakers.

This only works if you can get to the line level signal going into the Sonos.

What did you use and who was the source?
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 5 made on Saturday December 17, 2016 at 12:18
buzz
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There is about a 70ms latency between Sonos Line-In and output from a Sonos amplifier or player -- even if the Line-In is on the same box that is connected to speakers. Sonos deliberately does this in order to keep all of the players time aligned across the network. Also, sound travels at about 1 foot per millisecond. Even if a speaker that is 40 feet away is time aligned with the speaker near you, the more distant speaker will seem "late". If you then move close to the more distant speaker, the original speaker will seem "late". You can use electronic delays or clever positioning to align the apparent source of the sound, but this alignment is valid for a very small region.

Typically, the latency associated with 7.1 processing is less than the 70ms Sonos latency and the Sonos associated Zone2 output is perceived as "late". A straight forward electronic delay in Zone2 does not work in this situation because the delay would need to be negative (predicting future output).

Depending on the signal processing scheme used inside the receiver, tinkering with the receiver's lipsync may help. You may also have some relief if you tinker with the speaker "distance" associated with each of the 7.1 speakers. (note that this may seem counter intuitive at first because the closer speaker must be delayed in order to align with the more distant speaker)

chris-L5S: Start by claiming that the front speakers are much more distant than the rear speakers. This may injure the home theater experience a little, but the rear speakers will align better with the Sonos output in the bar. Note, however, this scheme will suddenly break down if you switch the receiver to a "direct" mode.
Post 6 made on Saturday December 17, 2016 at 12:51
Craig Aguiar-Winter
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On December 16, 2016 at 19:07, chris-L5S said...
I have a theater room with a bar at the back. the theater is a 7.2 and i have 4 speakers in the bar. I have a Denon AVR-X3200W for the theater and a Sonos Amp in the Bar. Is there a way to add a delay to the zone 2 or a different receiver that does not have a delay on the zone 2?
TIA

I might not be following. I read it as you want a delay in zone two and then you don't want a delay. If your concern is that the audio in Zone 2 is not in sync with that in Zone 1, then you can use "All zone Stereo" on the Denon. It syncs the zones up so there is is no time delay, and also allows an HDMI source to be used in the extra zones. The down side is that Stereo or All Chanel Stereo are the only sound modes available when All Zone Stereo is in use.

I have a client in a very similar set up (5.1 main system with two speakers over the bar). He's very happy with the set up.

Craig
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 7 made on Saturday December 17, 2016 at 12:52
Ernie Gilman
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On December 17, 2016 at 12:18, buzz said...
There is about a 70ms latency between Sonos Line-In and output from a Sonos amplifier or player...

I used an Audiologic D-11 two-channel delay line. Source was ebay. I ran across a similar device once in an auction house where the hall was about forty feet wide and a hundred feet long. I adjusted it so the feed going to the front speakers had no delay and the feed going to the speakers halfway down the hall had fifty ms of delay. As buzz says, figure about 1 ms per foot. It changed a room that seemed to have a lot of echo to a much more intelligible space. Oh, yes, and I pointed all the speakers toward the back of the room.

chris-L5S: Start by claiming that the front speakers are much more distant than the rear speakers. This may injure the home theater experience a little, but the rear speakers will align better with the Sonos output in the bar. Note, however, this scheme will suddenly break down if you switch the receiver to a "direct" mode.

What does "start by claiming" mean? I envision a conquistador with a flag on the shore of "front speakers," claiming them for the Queen....
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 8 made on Saturday December 17, 2016 at 15:23
Lowhz
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On December 17, 2016 at 10:26, highfigh said...
What did you use and who was the source?

This works too

[Link: motron.com]
Post 9 made on Saturday December 17, 2016 at 20:23
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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And the device I used was probably more expensive than that motron unit when it was new.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 10 made on Saturday December 17, 2016 at 22:38
chris-L5S
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On December 17, 2016 at 12:51, Craig Aguiar-Winter said...
I might not be following. I read it as you want a delay in zone two and then you don't want a delay. If your concern is that the audio in Zone 2 is not in sync with that in Zone 1, then you can use "All zone Stereo" on the Denon. It syncs the zones up so there is is no time delay, and also allows an HDMI source to be used in the extra zones. The down side is that Stereo or All Chanel Stereo are the only sound modes available when All Zone Stereo is in use.

I have a client in a very similar set up (5.1 main system with two speakers over the bar). He's very happy with the set up.

Craig

i have the Denon Zone 2 line out going to a Sonos Amp. the 7 channels on the amp go to the theater room. The theater room has a bar in the back with 3 TVs in it. I installed 4 speakers there. the issue is the audio coming from Z2 is ahead of the theater room because of processing so there is an echo.

I will try the MCS and see if this makes a difference. The bar is mainly used when there is a ball game on so surround processing is not required. I know he will want to watch a movie there as well.

the "no delay" option would be to replace the Denon AVR with a different manufacturer AVR that will have both zones always in sync.
Post 11 made on Saturday December 17, 2016 at 23:44
Craig Aguiar-Winter
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On December 17, 2016 at 22:38, chris-L5S said...
i have the Denon Zone 2 line out going to a Sonos Amp. the 7 channels on the amp go to the theater room. The theater room has a bar in the back with 3 TVs in it. I installed 4 speakers there. the issue is the audio coming from Z2 is ahead of the theater room because of processing so there is an echo.

I will try the MCS and see if this makes a difference. The bar is mainly used when there is a ball game on so surround processing is not required. I know he will want to watch a movie there as well.

the "no delay" option would be to replace the Denon AVR with a different manufacturer AVR that will have both zones always in sync.

I'm pretty much only selling Denon and Marantz (so my knowledge of other brands is limited) these days. Both have the All Zone Stereo, and both won't do suround sound in the main zone when AZS is in use. I've got a sneaking suspicion that any receiver processing surround in the main zone would be delayed compared to Zone 2 just for that very reason. I'm thinking they created the All Zone Stereo type features as a work around.
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.


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