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Power conditioners and power amps.
This thread has 19 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Wednesday December 14, 2016 at 19:19
Dave in Balto
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Just wondering if people are plugging their amps into surge units. At one time there was a thought that amps don't need to be protected and that they would be choked by the surge protection.

I've seen amps blow fuses and power supplies before so common sense tells me they benefit from protection.

Any new thoughts on the isssue?
Hey, careful man, there's a beverage here!

The Dude
Post 2 made on Wednesday December 14, 2016 at 22:00
vwpower44
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Furman. Elite 15/20PFI or their reference series. Only thing I use on big amps.
Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish...
Post 3 made on Thursday December 15, 2016 at 08:02
thecapnredfish
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Just like the Glades plug in commercial goes. Plug it in(surge) plug it in(amp). Customer is willing to pay for one, use it.
Post 4 made on Thursday December 15, 2016 at 09:06
highfigh
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Many power amps don't care much unless the surge is extreme- tube amps can be vulnerable because they increase the line voltage so much for the plates and if the caps aren't rated for high enough voltage, they can go away. Hopefully, the fuse blows, but who knows? Solid state amps don't work with such high voltage, so the effect is less. Many surge strips, protectors and so-called 'conditioners' can limit current if the amp isn't highly regulated and some have outlets marked for amplifiers and some have one for Subwoofer (or, just 'Sub'). Haven't opened one, so I don't know what is different.

I installed a Furman Elite 15PFi ten years ago- not a single piece of equipment has had a problem and I have been in the equipment room during thunder storms with lightning strikes that were very close to the house.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 5 made on Thursday December 15, 2016 at 09:08
Fred Harding
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I use furman conditioning and sequencing on my rack of Crown and QSC amps that drive my PA. Strong recommendation there. Correct tool for the job...
On the West Coast of Wisconsin
Post 6 made on Thursday December 15, 2016 at 18:44
radiorhea
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On December 14, 2016 at 22:00, vwpower44 said...
Furman. Elite 15/20PFI or their reference series. Only thing I use on big amps.

+1000

I have a client with five BIG Krell amps. I have a Ref 20 on each one. He did not mind paying at all to protect them, given how expensive the amps were. Many storms with some big hits close by and no issues.
Drinking upstream from the herd since 1960
Post 7 made on Thursday December 15, 2016 at 19:32
Don Heany
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Agree with the above- but if you have the means to step it up- [Link: toruspower.com]
Post 8 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 00:58
Ernie Gilman
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On December 15, 2016 at 19:32, Don Heany said...
Agree with the above- but if you have the means to step it up- [Link: toruspower.com]

We used some of these in our Saudi system. Nice little jobbies. And the EquiTech transformers we used to convert 480V three phase into three separate 240V supplies just happened to use transformers made by Torus. When we were test-driving the system with the client's engineers, they told us the system was drawing about 17 kVA. The transformers, after ten minutes of this, were only slightly warm. Trust Torus.

I believe I see some misinformation here:
On December 15, 2016 at 09:06, highfigh said...
Many power amps don't care much unless the surge is extreme- tube amps can be vulnerable because they increase the line voltage so much for the plates and if the caps aren't rated for high enough voltage, they can go away.

The power transformer in the amp provides as high an AC voltage as is necessary to run the tubes, sometimes with B+ on the plates as high as 500 volts. This is not "increasing the line voltage." It's normal and responsible power supply design.

So there's a voltage surge and
Hopefully, the fuse blows, but who knows? Solid state amps don't work with such high voltage, so the effect is less.

Not at all. If you want to generalize, it makes sense to say that tubes are voltage devices (high impedance and high voltage circuitry) while transistors are current devices (low impedance, much higher current draw, and the power transformers for transistor amps always lower the voltage from mains level).

If a tube gets too much voltage, it may shorten its life. Capacitors are usually rated much above operating voltage. Transistors, on the other hand, get one chance at too much voltage or too much current, and then they open or short. Gone. Dead. One occurrence.

Many surge strips, protectors and so-called 'conditioners' can limit current if the amp isn't highly regulated

SOME protectors might limit the amount of current an amp can draw when you crank it, whether it's a tube unit or a solid state unit.

and some have outlets marked for amplifiers and some have one for Subwoofer (or, just 'Sub'). Haven't opened one, so I don't know what is different.

It could be that the labels are to help you plug your system back in if you take it apart. Some of these products state in their manuals that the outlets are specifically for certain types of products. Some don't.

I installed a Furman Elite 15PFi ten years ago- not a single piece of equipment has had a problem and I have been in the equipment room during thunder storms with lightning strikes that were very close to the house.

This is an anecdote. Are ALL of the power strips and extensions cords in your house made by Furman, with the same level of protection? Are ANY TVs connected directly to the power line? Have ANY devices in your house gotten destroyed during this time? If a TV plugged into a cheapo power strip did not get destroyed, you can't make any claims about the Furman.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 9 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 09:05
buzz
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It's usually the current surge associated with initial capacitor charging as the amp starts up that blows the fuse. Repeated surges can fatigue the fuse, causing it to blow after nnn startups. I've seen power amplifier's own fuses blowing because a purchase agent found a deal on the same value fuse, but it was not rated for the repetitive surge. Replacing an MDL fuse with an AGC may not work out in the long term, but the unit might start up immediately after the replacement.

At my university we had an ancient computer with a HUGE capacitor bank in the power supply. "Brute force" was a very apt description for this 19V power supply. Unfortunately, after several dozen startup's the transformer primary  winding would open or the diode bank would fail. The secondary winding was a giggle because it looked like a 1/2" copper plate. It was a bad day for the service engineer called to replace that transformer because it was rumored to weigh about 800 pounds. We never shut the computer down, but power grid failures would apply towards our startup count.

Tube equipment typically presents less current draw at startup and is much more tolerant of voltage spikes. Up to the point of melting or breaking a weld, tubes will usually survive repeated gross abuse very well.

Surge protectors that offer an "Amplifier" outlet can provide a higher current path, less stringent filtering, or startup sequencing options for this outlet. Typically, power amplifiers are less sensitive to power line conducted noise. There may be several filters in series with a bank of receptacles associated with each stage. The "Amplifier" bank is first in the line, while CD players, phono preamps, and such will use the final stage for maximum suppression.
Post 10 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 10:21
highfigh
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On December 16, 2016 at 00:58, Ernie Gilman said...
I believe I see some misinformation here:
The power transformer in the amp provides as high an AC voltage as is necessary to run the tubes, sometimes with B+ on the plates as high as 500 volts. This is not "increasing the line voltage." It's normal and responsible power supply design.

If the plate voltage is higher, how is the transformer NOT increasing the line voltage, whether it's DC or AC? In order for the B+ to be in the 300VDC+ range, the output from the power transformer's secondary must be increased before it reaches the rectifier, where it may/may not pass through without voltage drop.

Does that satisfy your need to correct everything I write?



So there's a voltage surge and
Not at all. If you want to generalize, it makes sense to say that tubes are voltage devices (high impedance and high voltage circuitry) while transistors are current devices (low impedance, much higher current draw, and the power transformers for transistor amps always lower the voltage from mains level).

Yes, tubes are voltage devices, but the higher voltage is to overcome the inefficiency of the tube's operation. However, the ratio of the PT's input voltage to output makes it necessary to make sure the components aren't exposed to excessive voltage, for too long and as long as the capacitor's rating is accurate AND leave headroom, it should be OK. A short spike may not kill a cap immediately, but it's not a good thing for the cap.

If a tube gets too much voltage, it may shorten its life. Capacitors are usually rated much above operating voltage. Transistors, on the other hand, get one chance at too much voltage or too much current, and then they open or short. Gone. Dead. One occurrence.

OK, so what is the limit for over-voltage? Can't know, unless we're aware of the device's limitations, so generalization in the protection is required.

SOME protectors might limit the amount of current an amp can draw when you crank it, whether it's a tube unit or a solid state unit.

It could be that the labels are to help you plug your system back in if you take it apart. Some of these products state in their manuals that the outlets are specifically for certain types of products. Some don't.

Some manufacturers say they label some receptacles for amplifiers as such and don't use any protection on those, but it depends on the manufacturer.

This is an anecdote. Are ALL of the power strips and extensions cords in your house made by Furman, with the same level of protection? Are ANY TVs connected directly to the power line? Have ANY devices in your house gotten destroyed during this time? If a TV plugged into a cheapo power strip did not get destroyed, you can't make any claims about the Furman.

Yes, it's an anecdote, but your comment about the transformers being only slightly warm came after being used for a whopping ten minutes. THAT's not proof of long-term reliability. For all we know, they could have worked for eleven minutes, but we don't know if the system was running at capacity, or not because you didn't state anything about that.

The TV that was originally used in the room served by the Furman was moved to the exercise room and it's still running. A new TV was installed in the system fed by the Furman and has had no problems, even after the lightning strike that caused a loud snapping sound in that room when I was there- this sound came from the ADT cellular communicator, which was not using the Furman. Never said it was MY house but I work where this was installed frequently and nobody else services the equipment.

The AVR in the exercise room lost the HDMI board after a storm and it's not on a protection device that's on the same level. The AVR and everything else in that particular rack works fine, though.


This isn't a pissing match- the OP only asked us for comments.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 11 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 10:41
BlackWire Designs
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Some of that Torus stuff is hhhottt but im too home electronics toy financially challenged to afford it :(
BlackWire Designs
Post 12 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 15:04
Ernie Gilman
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On December 16, 2016 at 10:21, highfigh said...
If the plate voltage is higher, how is the transformer NOT increasing the line voltage, whether it's DC or AC? In order for the B+ to be in the 300VDC+ range, the output from the power transformer's secondary must be increased before it reaches the rectifier, where it may/may not pass through without voltage drop.

I suppose I do have a need to comment on the things you write. A lot of them seem just a little off.

What is line voltage? It's the voltage applied to the component. Let's says it's 120 volts. If you step this up or down with a transformer, you then have another voltage at the secondary, but you haven't changed the line voltage at all. It's still 120 volts. Line voltage is the input, not any output, of a transformer.

| how is the transformer NOT increasing the line voltage, whether it's DC or AC?
It steps up the voltage to a new value that comes out of the secondary winding(s), but that voltage and that value are not called the line voltage. It's called, IIRC, the secondary voltage.
2. If you have DC line voltage, you can't step that up or down with a transformer.

See, you're stating the correct general idea -- that voltage is increased -- but you're using terminology that makes it unclear what's happening. For instance, DC out of a transformer? DC out of a power supply, sure, but as we're talking about it that's a transformer, a rectifier, and a filter. DC out of a transformer is like cookies out of a flour bin. Something's missing in the description.

...the rectifier, where it may/may not pass through without voltage drop.

All rectifiers have forward voltage drop. Some people come here to learn, and all of us learn stuff here. "May/may not" is simply not true.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 13 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 15:31
Mogul
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I'd feel fine about a SurgeX series mode suppressor on large power amps. I do plug all AVR's into Surge/UPS because of their microprocessor and networking sensitivities...Saves a TON of service calls, often with years of uninterrupted "up time."
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble." [Sir Henry Royce]
Post 14 made on Friday December 16, 2016 at 16:43
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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highfigh,
you know, we're just on different planets. I'm going to leave it at that.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 15 made on Saturday December 17, 2016 at 10:23
highfigh
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On December 16, 2016 at 15:04, Ernie Gilman said...
I suppose I do have a need to comment on the things you write. A lot of them seem just a little off.

What is line voltage? It's the voltage applied to the component. Let's says it's 120 volts. If you step this up or down with a transformer, you then have another voltage at the secondary, but you haven't changed the line voltage at all. It's still 120 volts. Line voltage is the input, not any output, of a transformer.

It steps up the voltage to a new value that comes out of the secondary winding(s), but that voltage and that value are not called the line voltage. It's called, IIRC, the secondary voltage.
2. If you have DC line voltage, you can't step that up or down with a transformer.

See, you're stating the correct general idea -- that voltage is increased -- but you're using terminology that makes it unclear what's happening. For instance, DC out of a transformer? DC out of a power supply, sure, but as we're talking about it that's a transformer, a rectifier, and a filter. DC out of a transformer is like cookies out of a flour bin. Something's missing in the description.

All rectifiers have forward voltage drop. Some people come here to learn, and all of us learn stuff here. "May/may not" is simply not true.

I made comments about the power transformer's secondary output- you might have missed those. I skipped a step in my comment- sue me.

All rectifiers have forward voltage drop, but some drop a lot more. Subbing diodes when a piece of equipment originally used a 4AR4/GZ34, 5Y3, etc can cause problems with component reliability AND sonic performance. For that matter, changing a bias resistor can kill the power supply's filter caps.

Never said anything about DC from the transformer.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
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