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? For electrician
This thread has 27 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 28.
Post 16 made on Tuesday October 25, 2016 at 09:22
westom
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On October 25, 2016 at 06:52, thecapnredfish said...
Never heard back.

The voltage would not have been that high if an earth ground was properly installed. That voltage indicates multiple failures. Inspection of that earthing system should be performed.

In another venue, the neutral wire failed inside a transformer. That earth ground was also disconnected. They ignored lights that would change intensity as major appliances power cycled. They reasoned that was acceptable.

So a gas line was used as a neutral. Fortunately nobody was home when gaskets failed and the house exploded.

Just another reason why a good earth ground is necessary.

In another home, the failed neutral caused phone in all nearby homes to ring constantly. That home was using phone lines for a neutral. How is that for a weird one.

Last edited by westom on October 25, 2016 12:54.
Post 17 made on Tuesday October 25, 2016 at 20:04
King of typos
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I believe I've found the problem and I also know who the client is...



KOT
Post 18 made on Tuesday October 25, 2016 at 23:25
Ernie Gilman
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What is it about the way Westom expresses himself (or itself) that sounds so robotic and disconnected from reality? I think part of his unbelievability is that he just doesn't sound like a person!
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 19 made on Wednesday October 26, 2016 at 10:18
westom
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On October 25, 2016 at 23:25, Ernie Gilman said...
What is it about the way Westom expresses himself (or itself) that sounds so robotic and disconnected from reality?

Only a child needs 'feelings' to know something. Adults don't. Hard facts should never include or require feelings. Children and adults who are easily deceived need to feel. Adults ignore all emotions when discussing technical issues. Adults also know any reply without 'reasons why' is best ignored. An answer without 'reasons why' is often a lie.

Does not matter if one's electricity now works. If that earth ground is not properly installed, then a serious human safety issue remains. One indication of pending danger is lights that change intensity when major appliances power cycle.

Voltage would not be that high had an earth ground existed. Not only fix an open neutral. Also inspect and fix what must be a compromised or missing earth ground.

Best is to ignore anyone who needs to 'feel' to know what is reality. Children need feelings. Children eventually grow to learn only facts matter. A high voltage number could not exist if earth ground was properly installed.

"Just the fact m'am." Who said that? Sorry. Irrelevant emotion.
Post 20 made on Thursday October 27, 2016 at 12:24
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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westom, you must be the ultimate conservative. Liberals do things that make them feel good without thinking through the ultimate consequences.

And you're wrong. Feelings are absolutely required to live and to live well. If you are able to deal only in facts, you will be a lonely and sad person.

How do you feel about what I said? Are you able to only comment on the information that I proposed was factual?
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 21 made on Thursday October 27, 2016 at 16:42
Bubby
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On October 25, 2016 at 23:25, Ernie Gilman said...
What is it about the way Westom expresses himself (or itself) that sounds so robotic and disconnected from reality? I think part of his unbelievability is that he just doesn't sound like a person!

I think he writes like an engineer. I understood everything he said.
Post 22 made on Thursday October 27, 2016 at 22:04
vwpower44
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I had a similar thing happen at my house. I have a water softener. Its the kind that doesn't use electric. It uses the water pressure to move the insides. Either way, it stopped working. When I turn the lever to the off position, it lifts the water pipe ground from my house. Since turning it off, I have lost 6 WAPS, three routers, one security cam, and two blurays. Whenever the electric goes off and comes back on, it would blow out several things.

After doing a bit of research I found that this was common with the Kinetico Softeners. My problem is that my panel grounds to my water pipe, but not right where it comes in. It grounds at the closest pipe to the panel. It should be right where it comes into the house. If it was, then when the softner is off, it would still ground through the water pipe. I ended up running a piece of pipe with a shutoff between the two pipes for continuity :)

I wonder how many people have their house grounded improperly and have a Kinetico water softener.
Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish...
Post 23 made on Thursday October 27, 2016 at 23:16
King of typos
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A grounding wire should've been installed for the Kinetico water softener. Just as if it were a water meter.

However, your piece of by pass pipe shall be good enough.

KOT
Post 24 made on Friday October 28, 2016 at 13:14
westom
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On October 27, 2016 at 22:04, vwpower44 said...
I wonder how many people have their house grounded improperly and have a Kinetico water softener.

Water pipe as an earth ground has long since been insufficient. Water pipe earth ground is the only electrode (defined by NEC) that cannot exist without some other earth ground.

Grandfathering means other missing earth grounds are not required to be installed. But informed homeowners upgrade that earthing anyway. Especially since the upgrade is so inexpensive and easy.

A bypass ground wire is required where a plumbing change (ie water meter) might put a plumber at risk.

Furthermore, a ground connection to cold water pipes should be located within inches of where that cold water pipe enters a building. Meaning that water softener should never have been between an electric breaker box and earth.

Best, at minimum, is to reroute that breaker box ground wire to where a cold water pipe first enters building. Also install that bypass at the water softener. Install a similar bypass between hot and cold water pipes to a hot water heater. And most important, connect a main breaker box directly to a copper clad ground rod located outside nearest that breaker box.

That above paragraph defines human safety. Connect hardwire ground from TV cable, from telephone NID surge protector, from satellite dish cable, from OTA antenna, etc directly to that dedicated earthing electrode. As required for appliance safety.

All parts are routinely found in big box hardware store because any informed layman can to it. And because it is easy.
Post 25 made on Friday October 28, 2016 at 14:19
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On October 28, 2016 at 13:14, westom said...
A bypass ground wire is required where a plumbing change (ie water meter) might put a plumber at risk.

I'll bet none of us thought of this!

Thanks, westom. I don't think any of us want to spend any of our money or our insurance company's money supporting the family of a plumber who was electrocuted because we accepted that something "should be okay" instead of running this problem to ground.

I meant the pun and I meant that literally.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 26 made on Friday October 28, 2016 at 21:10
highfigh
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On October 27, 2016 at 22:04, vwpower44 said...
I had a similar thing happen at my house. I have a water softener. Its the kind that doesn't use electric. It uses the water pressure to move the insides. Either way, it stopped working. When I turn the lever to the off position, it lifts the water pipe ground from my house. Since turning it off, I have lost 6 WAPS, three routers, one security cam, and two blurays. Whenever the electric goes off and comes back on, it would blow out several things.

After doing a bit of research I found that this was common with the Kinetico Softeners. My problem is that my panel grounds to my water pipe, but not right where it comes in. It grounds at the closest pipe to the panel. It should be right where it comes into the house. If it was, then when the softner is off, it would still ground through the water pipe. I ended up running a piece of pipe with a shutoff between the two pipes for continuity :)

I wonder how many people have their house grounded improperly and have a Kinetico water softener.

Uh, wut?

Does your house have ground rods? Are they connected to the electric service with an unbroken conductor? The water softener should have no bearing on your electric service, in any way. It would seem that the pipe to it is plastic and the water is being used as the ground conductor.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 27 made on Friday October 28, 2016 at 21:18
ericspencer
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On October 28, 2016 at 14:19, Ernie Gilman said...
I'll bet none of us thought of this!

Code requires a bonding jumper across these devices 250.53
Not my circus, not my monkeys
Post 28 made on Friday October 28, 2016 at 21:36
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On October 28, 2016 at 21:18, ericspencer said...
Code requires a bonding jumper across these devices 250.53

I see I was not clear. I bet none of us thought of the possible danger to a plumber. Sure, we might have thought of doing the right thing by jumping across the device, but that doesn't mean we realized the possible messy death of a pipe jockey.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
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