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When do we, as an industry, tell the manufacturers that HDMI should be replaced?
This thread has 67 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 30.
Post 16 made on Monday September 19, 2016 at 22:48
3PedalMINI
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Honestly, why is there a single person that sends Cedia a check each month? The only NOTABlE thing somewhat recently was them keeping our industry from being handed by sparky....and who knows, Sparky probably was like "hdmi-f that"

It's pointless, until cedia can strong arm these manufacturers to send products out that are not half baked or reimburse us for their shit equipment there is no point! That money is better spent at the watering hole at the end of the night questioning what career shift can be made.
The Bitterness of Poor Quality is Remembered Long after the Sweetness of Price is Forgotten! - Benjamin Franklin
Post 17 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 02:50
ErikU
Long Time Member
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When we cross-over from broadcast to AV, I'm always SUPER frustrated with HDMI. I don't get it at all. HDMI and HD-BaseT have never made any sense at all to me.

Mini-coax terminated with a BNC can do everything HDMI can do, but better, cheaper and easier. Way more reliable. HDMI is simply terrible. I hate dealing with it. We have to live with it in the consumer AV world only because of copyright protection. But honestly, even that could be done easy with coax if the consumer industry cared.
Post 18 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 09:58
3PedalMINI
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On September 20, 2016 at 02:50, ErikU said...
When we cross-over from broadcast to AV, I'm always SUPER frustrated with HDMI. I don't get it at all. HDMI and HD-BaseT have never made any sense at all to me.

Mini-coax terminated with a BNC can do everything HDMI can do, but better, cheaper and easier. Way more reliable. HDMI is simply terrible. I hate dealing with it. We have to live with it in the consumer AV world only because of copyright protection. But honestly, even that could be done easy with coax if the consumer industry cared.

I have often wondered why SDI never took off....it's because consumers are stupid and wouldn't dream of plugging in a coax to get "1080i" it was a progression from antenna to coax to composit to s-video to component and finally the turd we know of as HDMI....it all has one thing in common, it requires new equipment as it progresses. The sales pukes tell the world that the newest tech is the best and people swillow it hook line and sinker. It's all to polish the accounts of huge corps and their investors...and cover it up as "it's to prevent piracy"
The Bitterness of Poor Quality is Remembered Long after the Sweetness of Price is Forgotten! - Benjamin Franklin
Post 19 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 10:16
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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I often wonder what happened to the irritating environmentalists who stood in the way of progress thirty years ago, while today millions of satellite boxes MUST be abandoned in favor of new technology and we never heard BOO about an "environmental impact statement." If the industry had tried to introduce HDMI in the 70s and 80s, the resulting trashpile of old but completely usable equipment would have inspired national picketing.

Today we just VOID the reality of millions of components, all in one fell swoop.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 20 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 11:47
Trunk-Slammer -Supreme
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On September 20, 2016 at 02:50, ErikU said...
We have to live with it in the consumer AV world only because of copyright protection.

This IS the reason. The studios have billions and billions with which to convince our crooked politicians to do their bidding.

We don't have the funding to change things, and never will.


The studios won't be happy until we have to pay them over and over for everything.
Post 21 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 12:04
Fins
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On September 20, 2016 at 11:47, Trunk-Slammer -Supreme said...
This IS the reason. The studios have billions and billions with which to convince our crooked politicians to do their bidding.

We don't have the funding to change things, and never will.

The studios won't be happy until we have to pay them over and over for everything.

And this is all because grandma wanting to hook up a DVD burner and steal a copy of Murder She Wrote from Block Buster was the key problem in the piracy issue 🙄

Meanwhile, some guy at the facility in China that makes DVDs and BDs for the studios, is waiting for the government inspector to go home for the day so they can crank out pirate discs by the truck load
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 22 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 12:35
Lowhz
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You should vote with your wallets and stop selling anything with HDMI.
Post 23 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 12:41
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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Wow, Fins sure nailed it:

On September 19, 2016 at 12:29, Fins said...
We can't even form a solid consensus on whether IR, 232, or IP control is the most reliable control method.

Not only that, many of us believe there is one best method for everything!

There's no chance the band of misfits, rejects, and mad scientists in this industry can form a viable protest of any kind toward the manufacturers.

Yep. That "as an industry" is by far the weakest part of the topic! We are such a disjointed swarm of individualists that we haven't had any effect on CEDIA, which tells the lie that they represent us, let alone on equipment manufacturers.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 24 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 13:44
Dean Roddey
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On September 20, 2016 at 12:04, Fins said...
And this is all because grandma wanting to hook up a DVD burner and steal a copy of Murder She Wrote from Block Buster was the key problem in the piracy issue 🙄

Meanwhile, some guy at the facility in China that makes DVDs and BDs for the studios, is waiting for the government inspector to go home for the day so they can crank out pirate discs by the truck load

Unfortunately that's just not the situation. The problem isn't the guy in China with a pirate factory anymore. That guy probably is starting to worry about his job as well, because he can't compete with free to anyone who has a phone or tablet or computer.

The problem is that almost everyone out there steals digital content with a casual disregard that boggles the mind of any actually honest person. And now there's a massive infrastructure out there purely to illegally distribute content, and it's used by enormous numbers of people. That's the reality of it.

And of course the guy in China was a problem in the past, but we didn't have people in the western world importing illegal discs from China by the billions, so it was primarily a problem in an area that always was a problem anyway because it wasn't a wealthy country in previous decades. Illegal downloading, OTOH, completely undermined the actual working market of the first world countries where the money was actually made, because people who could easily afford to do the right thing and buy their content just stopped and started downloading everything for free.

Within a few years of the internet going commercial, an entire industry sprang up to rip off digital content producers, and to vilify those producers for any attempts to protect themselves. Now, it's gotten so bad that if some company forces something to be taken down on Youtube, they are condemned as evil, when in fact they are the ones being ripped off.

As long as the situation is like that, you aren't going to get any sympathy from lawmakers, who don't have be to paid off to support more copyright protection. Enforcing copyright is actually their job and they have been failing at it badly so it's not too hard to convince them to try to do things, whether or not they are ultimately effective. And believe me, it hurts small companies and less popular artists even worse than large ones, because the smaller players have less margin for loss.

Anyhoo, if you want to get rid of copyright protection measures, you'll first have to actually convince people to stop breaking the law on a massive scale. Then, when those measures are no longer required, and the losses to copyright infringement are something remotely close to what other industries lose to theft, you may get some sympathy from lawmakers on that front.

But, you know that's not going to happen. It's just going to get worse and worse. So the situation isn't going to change for the better and there's not going to be any real view by lawmakers that existing CP schemes are overbearing relative to the problem.

The only possible partial solution I see is to move personal copyright infringement out of the area of civil law and into the criminal law arena. Copyright was original conceived when it WAS the guy with the knockoff factory who was the problem, and anyone with a factory and resources and such is subject to lawsuits and fines. But now the problem isn't one guy stealing millions of items, it's hundreds of millions of people stealing hundreds of items, so civil law just isn't effective anymore. You'd go broke just trying to get judgments against a tiny fraction of the people who are stealing from you, so it's not even a waste of time, it's a counter-productive operation. And of course if you do try to protect yourself, you just get treated like a war criminal by the huge mass of people out there who believe now that it's their right to take anything digital they want.

Last edited by Dean Roddey on September 20, 2016 14:42.
Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
Post 25 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 14:30
Mac Burks (39)
Elite Member
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On September 20, 2016 at 13:44, Dean Roddey said...
Unfortunately that's just not the situation. The problem isn't the guy in China with a pirate factory anymore. That guy probably is starting to worry about his job as well, because he can't compete with free to anyone who has a phone or tablet or computer.

The problem is that almost everyone out there steals digital content with a casual disregard that boggles the mind of any actually honest person. And now there's a massive infrastructure out there purely to illegally distribute content, and it's used by enormous numbers of people. That's the reality of it.

And of course the guy in China was a problem in the past, but we didn't have people in the western world importing illegal discs from China by the billions, so it was primarily a problem in an area that always was a problem anyway because it wasn't a wealthy country in previous decades. Illegal downloading, OTOH, completely undermined the actual working market of the first world countries where the money was actually made, because people who could easily afford to do the right thing and buy their content just stopped and started downloading everything for free.

Now, it's gotten so bad that if some company forces something to be taken down on Youtube, they are condemned as evil, when in fact they are the ones being ripped off. Within a few years of the internet going commercial, an entire industry sprang up to rip off digital content producers, and to vilify those producers for any attempts to protect themselves.

As long as the situation is like that, you aren't going to get any sympathy from lawmakers, who don't have be to paid off to support more copyright protection. Enforcing copyright is actually their job and they have been failing at it badly so it's not too hard to convince them to try to do things, whether or not they are ultimately effect. And believe me, it hurts small companies and less popular artists even worse than large ones, because the smaller players have less margin for loss.

Anyhoo, if you want to get rid of copyright protection measures, you'll first have to actually convince people to stop breaking the law on a massive scale. Then, when those measures are no longer required, and the losses to copyright infringement are something remotely close to what other industries lose to theft, you may get some sympathy from lawmakers on that front.

But, you know that's not going to happen. It's just going to get worse and worse. So the situation isn't going to change for the better and there's not going to be any real view by lawmakers that existing CP schemes are overbearing relative to the problem.

The only possible partial solution I see is to move personal copyright infringement out of the area of civil law and into the criminal law arena. Copyright was original conceived when it WAS the guy with the knockoff factory who was the problem, and anyone with a factory and resources and such is subject to lawsuits and fines. But now the problem isn't one guy stealing millions of items, it's hundreds of millions of people stealing hundreds of items, so civil law just isn't effective anymore. You'd go broke just trying to get judgments against a tiny fraction of the people who are stealing from you, so it's not even a waste of time, it's a counter-productive operation. And of course if you do try to protect yourself, you just get treated like a war criminal by the huge mass of people out there who believe now that it's their right to take anything digital they want.

Yep.

Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 26 made on Tuesday September 20, 2016 at 23:35
Fins
Elite Member
Joined:
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11,627
On September 20, 2016 at 13:44, Dean Roddey said...
Unfortunately that's just not the situation. The problem isn't the guy in China with a pirate factory anymore. That guy probably is starting to worry about his job as well, because he can't compete with free to anyone who has a phone or tablet or computer.

The problem is that almost everyone out there steals digital content with a casual disregard that boggles the mind of any actually honest person. And now there's a massive infrastructure out there purely to illegally distribute content, and it's used by enormous numbers of people. That's the reality of it.

And of course the guy in China was a problem in the past, but we didn't have people in the western world importing illegal discs from China by the billions, so it was primarily a problem in an area that always was a problem anyway because it wasn't a wealthy country in previous decades. Illegal downloading, OTOH, completely undermined the actual working market of the first world countries where the money was actually made, because people who could easily afford to do the right thing and buy their content just stopped and started downloading everything for free.

Within a few years of the internet going commercial, an entire industry sprang up to rip off digital content producers, and to vilify those producers for any attempts to protect themselves. Now, it's gotten so bad that if some company forces something to be taken down on Youtube, they are condemned as evil, when in fact they are the ones being ripped off.

As long as the situation is like that, you aren't going to get any sympathy from lawmakers, who don't have be to paid off to support more copyright protection. Enforcing copyright is actually their job and they have been failing at it badly so it's not too hard to convince them to try to do things, whether or not they are ultimately effective. And believe me, it hurts small companies and less popular artists even worse than large ones, because the smaller players have less margin for loss.

Anyhoo, if you want to get rid of copyright protection measures, you'll first have to actually convince people to stop breaking the law on a massive scale. Then, when those measures are no longer required, and the losses to copyright infringement are something remotely close to what other industries lose to theft, you may get some sympathy from lawmakers on that front.

But, you know that's not going to happen. It's just going to get worse and worse. So the situation isn't going to change for the better and there's not going to be any real view by lawmakers that existing CP schemes are overbearing relative to the problem.

The only possible partial solution I see is to move personal copyright infringement out of the area of civil law and into the criminal law arena. Copyright was original conceived when it WAS the guy with the knockoff factory who was the problem, and anyone with a factory and resources and such is subject to lawsuits and fines. But now the problem isn't one guy stealing millions of items, it's hundreds of millions of people stealing hundreds of items, so civil law just isn't effective anymore. You'd go broke just trying to get judgments against a tiny fraction of the people who are stealing from you, so it's not even a waste of time, it's a counter-productive operation. And of course if you do try to protect yourself, you just get treated like a war criminal by the huge mass of people out there who believe now that it's their right to take anything digital they want.

My point though, the problem is not on the back of the BDP or any other video source. The piracy is happening with software that can crack copyright encryption, or they go very low tech and use a video camera in a theater.
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

OP | Post 27 made on Wednesday September 21, 2016 at 13:28
highfigh
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On September 19, 2016 at 11:12, Ernie Gilman said...
If you're going to get corny and quote something, quote it correctly: "A little dab'll do ya."

I was in a KMart the other day. While waiting through an excruciating and worthless process with customer service, I counted a dozen models of TV for sale, all 40" and under, that all MUST have HDMI connections. People with no technical expertise can buy these and an HDMI cable, then connect their cable box or satellite receiver and have quite satisfactory TV setup.

Bang and they're done. To the manufacturing industry, that's success. We can't fight that.

It's nice to see someone confirm what I've long said: the idiot manufacturers introduced a technology designed to only take the signal a short distance. I call them idiots because that virtually eliminated their projectors and larger TVs from being able to be installed with the technology as it existed at the moment.

Yes, we are a flyspeck in the video industry, and there's nothing we can do to influence the products that are foisted on us. Or can someone out there say they have an industry contact who will listen to their concerns? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? (And don't forget that a "flyspeck" is a nice term for a piece of fly crap.)

OK, if we're a flyspeck, what would you call the digital signage, commercial video and any other industry that has been forced to use HDMI?

Thanks for telling me the meaning of 'flyspeck'. I would never have known.

I didn't think many others here would remember Brylcreem- let it go.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 28 made on Wednesday September 21, 2016 at 14:33
Fins
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On September 21, 2016 at 13:28, highfigh said...

I didn't think many others here would remember Brylcreem- let it go.

LMAO. You know he cant do that.
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 29 made on Wednesday September 21, 2016 at 18:54
Mac Burks (39)
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I like HDMI. I like that i can wire up a 10-20 video source rack in 30 minutes (including wire management) with premade HDMI cables. Before HDMI i had to make at least 6 cables per source. My hands would be numb for a week.

I have had 3 HDMI issues that i can think of...

1.Monster Cable brand "THIN" HDMI cables. I bought them to snake them around a fireplace into a cabinet. Once i got them in place they didnt work. So either the cables were crap or pulling them in the wall broke them somehow. The fix was to cut the wall and cabinet a little and use normal sized HDMI cables.

2.We ordered a cheap monoprice 1X5 HDMI switch/splitter for something. It didn't work. I still have it somewhere. I think it was 30 bucks.

3.We had an audio drop issue in 3 theaters (different projects) in a row. We would get a report every few months of no audio. The solution each time was to power cycle the Procise surround processor. After a lot of hair pulling i think i have it figured out (no calls for 6+ months now). We were routing video via fiber-RMC to the projector. Then we used another DM HDMI output to send audio to the procise. I rewired so that video out of the Procise went to the projector...removing the RMC from the mix. So DM out--->Procise--->Projector. That seems to have solved the problem.
Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 30 made on Wednesday September 21, 2016 at 19:05
Fins
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I call bullshit on only 3 issues. I can't even count the number of times I've had a simple surround system where you turn on the system and there would be video but no audio. Most of the time powering everything off and back on would fix it. But many times require rebooting the cable or sat box.

Just recently I had a tv causing a time warner box to regularly reboot.

Those are just the ones that come to mind quickly.
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

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