Or the air between the ears of cavemen who think that because an AV installer doesnt have the solution it means their isnt one.

Im an AV installer so the specifics arent there but the plan is to quit murdering people and start using solar and wind.


I would imagine they are made in factories. We used to use lead in paint but we somehow managed to bring the world to a screeching hault and we made our way through the darkness to a world where the use of lead paint is only happening in the 3rd world.



Right so since we need some oil we should just use it for everything. Got it.


Yeah because thats so much easier than mounting panels to the roof so that we can absorbe free energy from the sun.

You coming up with the whale oil thing explains why its taken half a century to stop burning things for energy.

No, it was you clearly missing my previous point.

As for an alternative to oil, there's not one. At least not in the immediate future. Alternative energies are finally making some headway, but it's taken until just recently for supporting technologies to reach a level to even make it possible to develop alternatives to oil. Your acting like everyone just needs to go buy an electric car tomorrow shows you ignorance. An electric car is very inefficient rural and mountainous areas. And they haven't even tried replacing heavy trucks with anything but diesel.

Also, petroleum is used in manufacturing almost all products. plastic is a petroleum product. Even our asphalt roads are petroleum based.

Yeah, screw oil!

Lead isn't a fuel and it wasn't the main ingredient in paint- it wasn't until they found that lead is poisonous that they began to look for alternatives but the fact remains that lead paint adheres better than many paints being used now. You think the energy from the Sun is free, but you (and others like you) don't consider what's involved in making solar panels and windmills.

You don't know much about science, do you? Your reading comprehension could use some work, too. When I wrote "How, exactly, do you think electric cars are made...", you responded with "I would imagine they are made in factories.". Show me a factory that doesn't use oil. That's like answering "What kind of car do you drive?" with "A blue one".

BTW- Japan still kills whales for a variety of byproducts, so it's not over. It's totally stupid that they still do this, but....

I'm not arguing that we should get off of the Oil horse, but the fact is, it's the single most useful substance on/in the planet. The energy density of oil derivatives is higher than most other fuels, they can be used for making medicine lubricants, plastics, paints, fabrics, solvents, etc and the ROI for the raw material, assuming it comes through peaceful means, is very low.

If the energy utilities hadn't been allowed to become as powerful as they are, it would be much easier to stop using them as our source of electricity, but they have a lot of clout in government. Given a choice, I would be disconnected from any source of electricity and natural gas, but in MKE, it's not easy to do that.

6+ Billion people on the planet and you think we can just drop oil as a main material for making almost every product being manufactured. Right. Let us know how that works, in your world.

Industries use propane and CNG for a lot of vehicles, but not as much for surfaces that aren't level. Many fleet vehicles use it, too- ATT, WE Energies (in Wisconsin), buses, police cruisers and some package delivery services use these fuels.

OTOH, it's still fossil fuel, so..... The argument that Propane and CNG should be used more and oil less is amusing- so many of the people who spout that seem to be oblivious to the fact that it is a fossil fuel and the byproducts of their combustion result in greenhouse gases (water vapor is the main greenhouse gas) and some of the same compounds as using gasoline.

It's amazing to see and hear people like yourself try to defend this... TURD.

A non issue such as Trumps deceptive, fraudulent business practices???

Businesses failing due to growing too quickly, or not addressing people's needs is one thing. But, TRUMPS common thread in business has been fraudulent practices, based upon lies, and conning people and investors.
Keep trying to defend this lunatic. He wont be around long.

His sh*t is catching up with him. The phoniest bastard on the planet. He will be going down soon. I give him a month.

Uhm this is 2016. Yes there is an alternative. Photovoltaic / SOLAR. As usual Europe is way ahead of this --- especially Germany. Many towns in Germany require solar panels for new construction.

It always blew my mind when traveling to fly over sunny states like Arizona, and see the lack of solar panels. My land lord installed solar panels last year and is now receiving revenue back from our local utility company! This, in overcast Seattle!

At least not in the immediate future. Alternative energies are finally making some headway, but it's taken until just recently for supporting technologies to reach a level to even make it possible to develop alternatives to oil. Your acting like everyone just needs to go buy an electric car tomorrow shows you ignorance. An electric car is very inefficient rural and mountainous areas.

Huh?!? What do rural and mountainous areas have to do with electric cars efficiencies?

And they haven't even tried replacing heavy trucks with anything but diesel.

TESLA is now working full speed ahead on electric big rigs.


Keep on fracking kids!

Misguided? Well I read the article, along with Wikilinks articles and several others. The man is a lying con-artist. He reminds me of the Wizard of Oz.

"China is taking all of our jobs" meanwhile Donald's clothing is made there, and his GF, I mean, daughters shoe lines are made in China.David Letterman called him out on this, and TRUMPH shrugged his shoulders and claimed he didn't know where his sh*t was made.

BTW his daughter is being sued for making cheap copies of shoes designed by other shoe companies. Where are her cheap knock off shoes made????? CHINA!!! LOL

Much of his clothing is also manufactured in............MEXICO made by druggies and rapists whom, are NOT going to pay for his stupid wall!

BTW, in 2014 Trump paid $47 in income taxes. Cant wait to see his recent tax returns... Release your tax returns, Orange-One!

I am beginning to think more and more that TRUMP may be a genius, and wants to destroy the Rethuglican party. A Manchurian (sp?) candidate... A Mole. Maybe it's a social experiment, and he will drop out and write a best selling book, and put out a movie?

Oh, and also, I thought he was self funded? His campaign manager today announced last month they raised $80,000,000.00.

Fins, Bonervox & Radiorhea... want to place bets on whether or not he will have the balls to debate the Democratic candidate---or do you think he will weasel out of it?

If you don't understand how traveling up an incline would affect efficiency in a vehicle, then I don't know how to continue this with you. But congratulations to your landlord. He wasted his money, but he gets to feel warm and fuzzy while doing it. i have a friend that sells and installs alternative energy systems and offers other products to make homes more efficient. I asked him real world numbers one day on solar. It still is not a net gain for the end customer. The only real plus is that people buying solar systems are driving the market to make them more efficient and cheaper to manufacturer.

So, a gas vehicle is not affected going uphill either? Gas vehicles can magically avoid the loss of efficiency of fighting gravity / but e-vehicles cannot? Hmmmm fascinating.

Did you learn this at TRUMP University?

Fins then said:
But congratulations to your landlord. He wasted his money, but he gets to feel warm and fuzzy while doing it. i have a friend that sells and installs alternative energy systems and offers other products to make homes more efficient. I asked him real world numbers one day on solar. It still is not a net gain for the end customer. The only real plus is that people buying solar systems are driving the market to make them more efficient and cheaper to manufacturer.

Mr. Stanley said:
Well, she is generating enough solar energy to sell some BACK to the power company / power-grid.

In Seattle, due to weather conditions, there is on the average, an 8 year payback / break even point on the initial investment, but after that, it's pure gravy---so your expert solar friend is ill informed, I'm sorry to report. If people buying solar now, are driving the market to make the panels cheaper, and improving technology and efficiency of the panels, is that a BAD thing?

Are solar panels undermining the ground stability and polluting drinking water and causing earthquakes - like Fracking?

"Keep on Fracking in the Free-World"... or was it...Rocking?

The pay/back break even period in sunnier climates is less.

The pro-CNG argument is driven primarily by the CNG industry. Not people who acknowledge the science of climate change and accept the reality that we're cooking ourselves. CNG is marginally better than oil but it still releases carbon.

The other point you made appears to be a minimizing fallacy: water vapor is the main contributor as there's way more of it, therefore carbon isn't a big deal.

[Link: skepticalscience.com]

When skeptics use this argument, they are trying to imply that an increase in CO2 isn't a major problem. If CO2 isn't as powerful as water vapor, which there's already a lot of, adding a little more CO2 couldn't be that bad, right? What this argument misses is the fact that water vapor creates what scientists call a 'positive feedback loop' in the atmosphere — making any temperature changes larger than they would be otherwise.

The point that many others are making is basically a childish redirect: if you believe in climate change stop driving a car and using fossil fuels. It's not a reasonable talking point: it's an effort to stop a discussion. 

Hey, Mr. S -- please learn how to show quotes so we won't think you're having a written conversation with yourself.


More importantly -- HEY! QUICK! LOOK OVER THERE! IT'S SOMETHING OR OTHER ABOUT BIKES! YES! OVER THERE! ON SOME OTHER WEBSITE!

I don't think Mac insisted on total elimination of oil usage. That wont happen in our lifetimes, but working on REDUCING oil consumption can happen and is happening.
I believe that is the point he was trying to make.

Aren't some of us here working on more efficiency in our systems? Driving the technology forward? Science believers? Maybe some of you incorporate Solar into your installs...(I don't know)... But, we SHOULD BE.

Now, if the Orange - Raccoon gets elected and has the Nuclear codes, all of this will be a moot point. LOL We will all be taking dirt-naps.

Well, thank goodness that Drumpf is actively sabotaging himself so he doesn't have to be President.  Its a very hard job that takes up a tremendous amount of time and energy.  This doesn't fit with Drumpf's lifestyle.

I think that the practical position is:

1. Oil has always been a political stone around our neck
2. It's a limited resource while new babies probably aren't going away any time soon
3. The less we are dependent on it, the better
4. The Saudis can't suddenly start pumping sunshine like crazy and destroy our native energy production efforts
5. Yeh, we'd still need oil for manufacturing various things. But, that's probably a fairly limited amount compared to what we burn in vehicles every year.
6. Consider what would happen to the price of those other products if the oil they still need were a 10th the price because the vehicle demand for oil was much lower than it is now.
7. For those things we do still need oil for, it would be around for those needs for far longer, and cost a lot less as well.
8. Instead of making the economic and political position of the folks sitting on the remaining oil ever greater over the next century, why not try to reduce it as much as possible, even if you don't care what the air our great grand children will breath is like.
9. Yes, you do still need to generate energy to charge electric cars, but that's something that could be done more and more on a local, renewable basis. Maybe we can't get long haul freight onto electric for some time, but if most folks had an electric car and solar panels on their house to help charge it, the difference would be massive to our oil dependence.


So, the obvious answer is push as hard on renewables as is practical. Incentivize it very heavily. That's a legitimate function of the government, to help get technologies that would be very good for us in the long run over that economies of scale hump into self-sustaining positive cycle.