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Topic:
LutroN ra2 switch getting hot
This thread has 40 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 41.
Post 31 made on Friday January 15, 2016 at 18:40
Fiasco
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On January 15, 2016 at 13:09, fcwilt said...
At least a couple of reasons.

- your solving a problem that my experience says does not exist.

- lots of customers like being able to dim outside lights.

Have you had any issues with inspectors not being sure if it meets code or not?

Have you had any issues with the contactor not meeting the minimum load requirements of the controlling device?

1) and yet it exists right here for the OP

2) I said switched loads. And again, in the case of the OP, why would you want to dim drive lights.

3) A contactor is a pretty common sight for Electrical inspectors. It's not dark science.

4) no

I'm not talking about coach lights or eve lights. I'm talking about roadway, yard, ect. In 40 years you've never had to turn on 4000 watts of yard lights?

Last edited by Fiasco on January 15, 2016 19:17.
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Post 32 made on Friday January 15, 2016 at 19:11
Munson
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On January 15, 2016 at 18:28, Trunk-Slammer -Supreme said...
Really?

I find that very surprising. I would think it's more like "I had ONE client that wanted to dim the outside lights for some reason no one could understand.".

Sarcasm????

Every lighting system I have ever worked on had dimming exterior lights, many if not most want them dimmed.
Post 33 made on Friday January 15, 2016 at 20:40
fcwilt
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On January 15, 2016 at 18:28, Trunk-Slammer -Supreme said...
Really?

I find that very surprising. I would think it's more like "I had ONE client that wanted to dim the outside lights for some reason no one could understand.".

Then your customers and mine simply have different likes and dislikes.
Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
Post 34 made on Friday January 15, 2016 at 20:56
fcwilt
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On January 15, 2016 at 18:40, Fiasco said...
1) and yet it exists right here for the OP

2) I said switched loads. And again, in the case of the OP, why would you want to dim drive lights.

3) A contactor is a pretty common sight for Electrical inspectors. It's not dark science.

4) no

I'm not talking about coach lights or eve lights. I'm talking about roadway, yard, ect. In 40 years you've never had to turn on 4000 watts of yard lights?

The OP mentioned a concern about heat - a fairly common problem. The solution in this case does not demand or require a contactor.

Every dimmer, fixture, etc I've encountered has specs as to max load under various conditions. In a residential setting the homeowner can often create a situation where the load exceeds the spec. Have the changed the code to require a home to be protected from the homeowner? Should we replace every dimmer/switch with some sort of circuit breaker matched to the load?

If you want to install contactors that's fine but don't try to claim that it is the one and only "correct" solution.


And who mentioned a 4000 watt load?
Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
Post 35 made on Saturday January 16, 2016 at 02:20
Fiasco
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|On 1452909369, fcwilt said...
The OP mentioned a concern about heat - a fairly common problem. The solution in this case does not demand or require a contactor.

If a contactor had been used the OP wouldn't have made this post in the first place. If heat is a common problem for you when handling lighting loads then you need to learn how to design your systems better. If the line voltage wiring is accesible, then a contactor would have been his cheapest and most reliable solution. But it's not so I recommended the Ra2 dual voltage switch.



Every dimmer, fixture, etc I've encountered has specs as to max load under various conditions. In a residential setting the homeowner can often create a situation where the load exceeds the spec. Haveks the changed the code to require a home to be protected from the homeowner? Should we replace every dimmer/switch with some sort of circuit breaker matched to the load?

That's basic electrical design. You design the system to handle the loads. If you don't like to pay to roll trucks on service calls, you look forward and try to anticipate potential problems and implement solutions to remediate it.

I, for one, did not like service calls at IBEW wages.

If you want to install contactors that's fine but don't try to claim that it is the one and only "correct" solution.

And who mentioned a 4000 watt load?

It's the "one and only" cheapest solution.

Your solution for the OP's problem is to spend $250 on bulbs. Mine was a $30 contactor (if the wiring is accessible) or a DV. Both of which are cheaper than yours.

The 4000 watt load was a rhetorical question. In your 40 years you have never been tasked with switching a massive load (or just a big load that exceded the capacity of the system devices available to you)?
---------
To the OP

22 candelabra bulbs. They are probably 40watt e-12 base bulbs I've never seen higher than a 60watt e-12. So it's either 880 watts or 1320 watts. I can assume that they are not 60 watt bulbs. Max the 8ans can handle 600 watts ganged. 1200 watts would shut the switch down. If they are 40 watts, the DV can handle the load if it's placed at the end of the gang box.

If the drive drive lights are on a dedicated circuit/breaker you could remove the switch, wire nut the wires to bypass the switch and install a blank and then move the switch down by the electrical panel and use a contactor.

Last edited by Fiasco on January 16, 2016 03:16.
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Post 36 made on Saturday January 16, 2016 at 07:06
KRAZYK
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What is the distance of the run from the panel all the way to the lights on the driveway?
The code will tell you that wire upsizing must occur due to voltage drop over long distances!

Lower voltages= increase in current=HEAT!
KRAZYK

Things you own end up owning you!
Post 37 made on Saturday January 16, 2016 at 08:20
King of typos
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On January 16, 2016 at 07:06, KRAZYK said...
What is the distance of the run from the panel all the way to the lights on the driveway?
The code will tell you that wire upsizing must occur due to voltage drop over long distances!

Lower voltages= increase in current=HEAT!

Exactly what I mentioned in my first post.

KOT
Post 38 made on Saturday January 16, 2016 at 08:37
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On January 15, 2016 at 02:09, drewski300 said...
You guys all have the tools to monitor RF spectrum, HDMI connectivity, network connectivity, etc, etc, etc. Go buy a meter with an amp clamp.... Pull the switch out of the wall, turn it on, and clamp the meter around the load wire with the switch turned on.

Yay! My thoughts EXACTLY. Hell, on this theory, and after hearing a ground noise seminar, I went out and bought a clamp-on meter that reads AC current down to milliamps... come on, you've GOT to have a clamp-on if you're doing anything professional with electricity!

If the running amps are over 8, you should figure out a different solution (like the contactor mentioned). The switch will heat up significantly because if it's pushing 8 amps through it much like a dimmer is only listed for 600 watts or 1000 watts.

If it's rated for 8 amps, it will safely conduct 8 amps, subject to derating requirements.

What I want to know is whether this is a switch or a dimmer. The spec sheet I found is too clunky to try to figure out, and you know the answer already.

If it's a switch, call it a switch, and heating will be minimal until you're beyond its current spec. If it dims, it's a dimmer and heat is always a consideration, especially around 50% lighting.

And this is just too weird but true:
On January 14, 2016 at 15:21, King of typos said...
Can you use a clamp on meter to see what the entire circuit is drawing?

KOT said it first!

Something is telling me that the distance of the run is causing the bulbs to draw more amperage because they aren't getting the proper voltages (under load).

WTF? Well, yes, it's true! Incandescent bulbs have much less resistance when cold than when they are hot, so if they do not get enough voltage to heat up totally, they may draw more current than you'd calculate. This is totally bassackward and true. The only part that's up in the air is just exactly how much more current they would draw.

And, just by the way, hanging a clamp meter on the load wire will tell you how much current is being drawn. I know, I'm being repetitive.

Theory is only good if the actual circuit you have behaves according to theories. See, theories define conditions, then predict results. If you have not researched the conditions, you can't apply theories. So just measure the damn current.

I just assume that it's a long run, because you mentioned that they are at the end of the driveway.

The "long run" part of things adds resistance that partially negates the excess current that would result from the bulbs running with too little voltage. Again, the question is: how much does this affect the real current draw?

KOT, my hat is off to you for realizing that! I bet, though, that you did not just sit there and realize it, but you won it fair and square while sitting, thinking about why you were losing a wrestling match with a lighting circuit!
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 39 made on Saturday January 16, 2016 at 08:39
KRAZYK
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On January 14, 2016 at 15:21, King of typos said...
Can you use a clamp on meter to see what the entire circuit is drawing? Something is telling me that the distance of the run is causing the bulbs to draw more amperage because they aren't getting the proper voltages (under load). I just assume that it's a long run, because you mentioned that they are at the end of the driveway.

KOT

Voltage was mentioned, however the cause of the voltage drop (wire size) was
not mentioned!
KRAZYK

Things you own end up owning you!
Post 40 made on Saturday January 16, 2016 at 09:46
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On January 16, 2016 at 08:20, King of typos said...
Exactly what I mentioned in my first post.

I suspect that went over a lot of people's heads. I know about this and I was starting to tell you how messed up your conclusions were when I realized what the hell you were talking about. If others were like me, they glossed over it and didn't really get it.

I wanted to write a lot about this but I'll spare you -- but here it is: if you have physical things in front of you that can be measured, don't get theoretical. Don't add up what the labels say -- maybe there's a friggin' SHORT somewhere!!! Measure things. You can work up a theory later to explain it. Meanwhile, you'll solve the problem.

Get a clamp meter. Measure the current. Then, think. Investigate more.

You know that story I told about the guy with the PAR lamp that vibrated? It killed channel 17. Try to start troubeshooting THAT ONE with a theory! Nope. I had him notice when the problem started, then look for what happened at that time of day. Measure what is there!
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 41 made on Saturday January 16, 2016 at 14:23
goldenzrule
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On January 16, 2016 at 08:37, Ernie Gilman said...

What I want to know is whether this is a switch or a dimmer. The spec sheet I found is too clunky to try to figure out, and you know the answer already.

If it's a switch, call it a switch, and heating will be minimal until you're beyond its current spec. If it dims, it's a dimmer and heat is always a consideration, especially around 50% lighting.

What I want to know is why you post these pedantic posts critiquing every little detail, spelling, or grammar error.... yet you don't read that I clearly stated switch. I clearly put the model number so you can EASILY reference what it is, and yet you STILL find a way to question the DETAIL about what was posted. Maybe THIS was just too over YOUR head?
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