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Topic:
An outsiders look at Crestron Vs Control4
This thread has 79 replies. Displaying posts 46 through 60.
Post 46 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 09:25
thecynic315
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On January 5, 2016 at 21:58, Ernie Gilman said...
I've heard about all the custom modules for this and that, and have read how you drop these custom modules in when programming Crestron.

Don't those pre-made custom modules change the setup of the system from programming to configuring, at least for those steps?

This is the same as using a Library, DLL or anything that gets added with a #INCLUDE statement.

So then a new web browser based off Chromium isn't programmed by a developer it is configured because all the heavy lifting was already taken care of and the new browser's new features are meaningless?

Understand what Programming/Computer Science is and how these ideas and terms apply to our industry.
Post 47 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 09:45
Sean@iTank
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On January 6, 2016 at 07:38, TAAVS said...
The only ones who own "the code" are the manufacturers of it. Crestron, Control4, Savant etc..... We take control protocols provided to us by the manufacturers of the items we want to control and make them work with the code provided to us by the code manufacturer. Those two things combined together make the system programming we use to integrate the items we either sell or take control of for our customers.

What? "Code Manufacturer"? I think you are confused.

-Does Microsoft own all of the code written in Visual Studio, C#, and .NET? (This would include Crestron's own products by the way)
-Does Apple own all code written in Xcode and Objective-C? (Savant)
-Does Oracle own everything written in Java?
-Control4's OS is Linux-based, so I guess they have no rights to it then.

The point is that nearly every programming language in existence is derived from another. An IDE like Visual Studio (or even Crestron's SIMPL)--a development environment--does not impart ownership rights for the code developed within it. All of the manufacturers you list are using a combination of open-source and proprietary elements and a variety of different languages they had no hand in developing in their systems.

Your comparison of the "code" for a Control4 or Savant system and that of custom programmed Crestron is misguided. They are not even close to the same thing.
Post 48 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 10:15
Impaqt
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On January 6, 2016 at 09:45, Sean@iTank said...
What? "Code Manufacturer"? I think you are confused.

I would assume hes talking more about the actual control Profiles/Drivers that manufacturers provide for us to use in our "program".

Your comparison of the "code" for a Control4 or Savant system and that of custom programmed Crestron is misguided. They are not even close to the same thing.

I gotta call bullshit on this.

There are definitely some actual "coding" that needs to take place with Crestron systems. But unless their programming suite has gone downhill drastically over the past 15 years, its still a LOT of "Configuring".

I had to write a few simple+ modules back in the day. (Probably can still find some of them on the old Crestron yahoo group), but for the most part, I pulled in pre-made "modules", Connected dots, and filled in boxes.

the User interfaces were much more time consuming, but once we created a template, we used it over and over again.

AMX did indeed require me to write code on a regular basis. they never got any of their wizards or shortcut suites working correctly. But still. I reused blocks of code on a regular basis.
Post 49 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 10:39
Sean@iTank
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On January 6, 2016 at 10:15, Impaqt said...
I would assume hes talking more about the actual control Profiles/Drivers that manufacturers provide for us to use in our "program".

Would you like to take a stab at how many DLLs, standard libraries, and toolkits NOT developed by Crestron are utilized in their programs and devices? Thousands. Crestron's S#Pro is literally a stripped-down, sandboxed version of Microsoft C#/.NET, programmed in MS Visual Studio (do not confuse this with Crestron Studio)

I gotta call bullshit on this.

There are definitely some actual "coding" that needs to take place with Crestron systems. But unless their programming suite has gone downhill drastically over the past 15 years, its still a LOT of "Configuring".

In regards to SIMPL? Depends on the scope. Basic residential system? Sure, who cares, throw some basic stuff together and move on. 7-figure project? Difference story.

We've shifted almost entirely to S#Pro at this point, and rarely touch SIMPL Windows anymore. A lot has changed in 15 years.
Post 50 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 10:43
thecynic315
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On January 6, 2016 at 10:15, Impaqt said...

AMX did indeed require me to write code on a regular basis. they never got any of their wizards or shortcut suites working correctly. But still. I reused blocks of code on a regular basis.

Never dealt with AMX so if it can't do what I am saying then just pretend.

With those blocks of code did you ever take those blocks and put them in a library then just do a function call?

That is really all a module is in Crestron it is just the instead of using Machine Code, or OOP they use a very visual system.

Just because SIMPL isn't written like C# doesn't mean it isn't programming.

Today SO much code is available in libraries and reused over and over again the idea of WHAT programming is has changed.

A video game developer that builds its own engine and then has point and click interface with context menus to add items, change stats, create objects. Do you call that configuring and not programming?

Once the engine/OS etc is built a lot of the programming is done in a more visual way.
Post 51 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 11:41
Impaqt
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On January 6, 2016 at 10:43, thecynic315 said...
Never dealt with AMX so if it can't do what I am saying then just pretend.

With those blocks of code did you ever take those blocks and put them in a library then just do a function call?

Yes, Absolutely. If it was a complicated device that I would use differently based on application, I would often create a module that I could call the functions I needed.

If it was just a simple source component I would usually just copy and past my codeblock.
Post 52 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 11:45
Impaqt
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On January 6, 2016 at 10:39, Sean@iTank said...
Would you like to take a stab at how many DLLs, standard libraries, and toolkits NOT developed by Crestron are utilized in their programs and devices? Thousands. Crestron's S#Pro is literally a stripped-down, sandboxed version of Microsoft C#/.NET, programmed in MS Visual Studio (do not confuse this with Crestron Studio)

In regards to SIMPL? Depends on the scope. Basic residential system? Sure, who cares, throw some basic stuff together and move on. 7-figure project? Difference story.

We've shifted almost entirely to S#Pro at this point, and rarely touch SIMPL Windows anymore. A lot has changed in 15 years.

If your doing 7 figure control projects, you are the exception around here I think.
Post 53 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 13:47
thecynic315
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On January 6, 2016 at 11:41, Impaqt said...
Yes, Absolutely. If it was a complicated device that I would use differently based on application, I would often create a module that I could call the functions I needed.

If it was just a simple source component I would usually just copy and past my codeblock.

Ok, but you COULD have take that code block as a library and done function calls.

So would you call that programming or configuration?

reusing a code block is exactly what a module is, it just isn't text.
Post 54 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 15:00
Impaqt
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On January 6, 2016 at 13:47, thecynic315 said...
Ok, but you COULD have take that code block as a library and done function calls.

I'm not sure what your getting at here...

So would you call that programming or configuration?

reusing a code block is exactly what a module is, it just isn't text.

If I downloaded a "Module" from AMX, I would consider that more "configuration".

there is nothing proprietary about that.

But if >I< wrote the module, well then, thats most definitely "programming".

That Module is my intellectual property and I would not be happy if another dealer took my module and started using it in other jobs.
Post 55 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 15:28
tweeterguy
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Careful, one shouldn't be able to say it's OK to download and use someone else's module, but it's not OK for someone to use yours.
Post 56 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 16:57
weddellkw
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On January 6, 2016 at 15:28, tweeterguy said...
Careful, one shouldn't be able to say it's OK to download and use someone else's module, but it's not OK for someone to use yours.

Of course it is. The module's developer is free to assign whatever license they want to it. MFR's give them away (to their dealers) because it's good for their business. The Yahoo Crestron group is full of module's and drivers made available for use. But dealers aren't obligated to give away the IP they've developed, particularly not to their competitors.
Post 57 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 17:52
rmalbers
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I think what some of you are really talking about is a 'type' of programming or programmer. 'Programming' has really changed over the years because programming languages have changed. What some might call 'real' programming is using a programming language that has to be compiled and linked into a executable program. When object oriented programming languages came along it became a more building block approach to 'programming' but still required compilers and linking. Fast forward to Java and all the other 'languages' that 'compile' at run time and that added a whole new type of programming. In a 'basic' since a program is anything that is transferred to a processor and causes specific actions by that processor. Someone that programs a processor to output "Hello World" is a 'programmer', but not a 'programmer' that someone is going to pay a lot of money to program! Anyway, there are a lot of 'programmers' around using a lot of different programming languages these days that program using a lot of different programming tools (gui's,etc). The expertise of these programmers vary more than ever before.
Post 58 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 18:25
Impaqt
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On January 6, 2016 at 15:28, tweeterguy said...
Careful, one shouldn't be able to say it's OK to download and use someone else's module, but it's not OK for someone to use yours.

Are you telling me that? I never said that.
Post 59 made on Wednesday January 6, 2016 at 19:44
roddymcg
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On January 6, 2016 at 11:45, Impaqt said...
If your doing 7 figure control projects, you are the exception around here I think.

There are a few of us that play in that realm, I was in 2 different 7 figure projects today.

For what it is worth, the code hostage thing drive me mad. Bill the client for the work you do, then work like hell to keep that client for a lifetime so you do not have to worry about "your" code.
When good enough is not good enough.
Post 60 made on Thursday January 7, 2016 at 11:21
sirroundsound
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"Bill the client for the work you do"

I think that sums it all up.

From all the treads over the years that end up going back and forth about "the code" the one thing I think I understand is this -

In commercial systems using Crestron or AMX, the clients typically will have or have access to the code required. Mostly because they have paid (often a lot of $$) for it. Thus they have been billed for the work that was done. Much like a large software company employs lots of programmers to create new software they can sell, the programmers do not "own" the software as they have been paid for their work.

In a lot of residential projects, the project would probably be lost if the true costs of programming were actually billed to the client. So programmers spend countless hours creating GUI's and modules or drivers to operate and control equipment, that the client is not paying for the time to build, just the right to use. That build time does eventually get paid because these modules typically do get used in more than one project. But.. they remain the property of the person that created them.

The big stink about all this comes from the fact that too many high end clients out there own wonderful systems, but the whole who owns the code, or even what the heck does "the code" mean to them gets glossed over during the sale It becomes a huge issue when someone goes out of business or gets robbed of their laptop and computers and has no back up and the client wants changes made or has sold his house without any understanding about any of this.

If you took a survey of 500 home owners that have Crestron systems, and explained to them what the code is and why it is needed, I wonder what the percentages would be?
That have the code,
That understand about the code and are aware that their integration firm / programmer is keeping for them,
Have no idea what you are talking about and the moment you leave will be on the phone with their integrator or worse... Lawyer
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