When a home owner needs to change dealer for some reason, I don't think that the home owner should be required to pay another dealer to start from scratch in order to replace a DVD player.

The acquiring dealer has a responsibility to respect any intellectual property licensed to the home owner. Although my configurations are unique, I don't attach any "rights" to a configuration of an RTI, URC, C$, etc. because it is mostly click, click, drag and drop. In my view it is similar to claiming intellectual property rights to directions to the grocery store. To be sure, one set of directions might avoid traffic lights and congestion better than another, but I don't attach any "rights" to this. On the other hand if the control system programmer wrote or purchased a custom driver for his customers, I think that these should be considered protected intellectual property. In my opinion reusing a custom driver for the same home owner is not violating any intellectual property rights.

The guy sold the business and retired. There is no reason the code for all his projects wouldn't go with the new ownership.

Its either an oversight or the original owner is a dick.

Find a way to contact the original owner/programmer.

We provide this upon final client sign off and us receiving our final payment.

There are only 2 projects I have done in the past few years where the client doesn't have the project file.

Guess what they forgot to give us?

Buzz -
When homeowner chooses to use new dealer, he should absolutely expect them to start from scratch.

To your second paragraph: I absolutely agree with you. You're talking about configuring a system (URC, RTI, C4, HAI, etc.).
And I made that point very clear in my 3rd post.
My argument for IP, ownership, etc. only extends to programmers, as in Crestron, etc.

You want to configure network settings on my Windows machine, great. Give me the config file so I can rebuild the system and apply your work in the future.

You want to WRITE next version of Windows OS, I'll purchase a copy without any expectations of owning the source code.

Comparing windows to a crestron system isnt fair. If you want to use your computer as a CCTV DVR you can download an app and buy some hardware and away you go because windows is "open enough" to let you customize your computer. You can add a BD drive or get CAD software and do anything you want. With crestron you are totally locked out of your system when you dont have the code. Imagine having to buy a new copy of windows everytime you wanted to try a new browser or mail client.

If an end user wants to replace a TV for a 7 figure crestron system and they have the code its a few hundred bucks. Without the code it might be $100,000.00 to reprogram the entire system.

I used to for for a company that for many years outsourced it's Crestron programming before employing a programmer to do it in-house. During this period one of our customers sold their house and had a big falling out with the new owner. The system worked fine but on the kitchen screen was the name of the previous owner which the new owners hated being there. We contacted our former programmer to make this minor change, at which point he told us he had been robbed since doing that job and all equipment that the final version of source code was on had been lost. True or not? who knows. But there had certainly been a falling out with this programmer which prompted us to move programming in-house. In the end the customer kept the programming as it was, because the cost of reprogramming would have been over 20k just to make this tiny alteration. Programmers hoarding the source code and then being able to wield it like a weapon was one of the prime reasons for bringing programming in-house. I'll bet there is not a single programmer out there that has not used at least one driver created by someone else without that persons knowledge.

Speaking for myself, i would never in a million years agree to spend a fortune on something like Crestron programming if there was any chance at all that i might be asked to pay another fortune to make minor changes later for any reason. I'll bet my right nut that none of the programmers that refuse to give out source code would allow themselves to be put in that unreasonable position either. That whole line about "they paid for, and received a one off system" is pure bullshit unless they explain to their clients the possible ramifications before they take on the job. I wonder how many of those programmers tell their customer that no-one except them will ever be able to work on the system and it's just bad luck if i go out of business or move, or die. Because if i do you will need to spend 50k if you want to make the tiniest change to the system.

Anyone???


Thought not.

Agreed. It's a poor business model perpetuated by narcissistic, often unskilled and unethical business owners. They think what they do is life changing or so unique that the world should worship their work. They also fear that the competition could steal their work...typically because they know they suck and will either abandon the project or be fired at some point in time in the very near future; and then the competition has to take over their mess.

Poor installations and results occur with all platforms whether it be AMX, Crestron, C4, URC, RTI or the electricians brother in-law who does Harmony on the side. Shitty work is abound in all areas, no matter what the control system of choice is.

Be ethical; provide the code and configuration files at the end of the project. Put it in your contracts that you will be doing so and charge accordingly for your service. Store it on the processor, put a USB drive and CD in the back of the rack and/or with the system documentation...and provide another copy to the client to put in their safe or with their attorney or trustee.

This is exactly the issue. Customers don't know they need to ask for the code until its too late. Some dealers try to use the code to hold clients hostage while others are just too disorganized to provide clients with copies of the code or even complete the project for that matter.

I guess none of you ever worked with an architect that won't provide DWG, or will provide just few layers. Last one I worked with only gave me PDFs.

Speaking of architects, ask one to provide you with a set of plans that you can then distribute to other, interested homeowners.

It's just a bunch of lines on the paper, right? How much more transparent can it be?

The architect is providing the drawings for a house (for example). Him not wanting to turn over the DWG file just means you cant edit his blue prints. 5 years later you want to build an addition. The new architect can just draw the edition and hand it off to the builder.

Imagine having to have the entire house redrawn to add an addition.


No two programmers out there do things the same way. No client is handing his code to a new Crestron dealer that then takes that code and builds an AV empire with it. In most cases they want to start from scratch anyway. If they do get the code they make the change and move to their next project.


Crestron is actually more secure than blueprints. You can take a printed copy of prints and build 100 houses with it. You cant do that with a Crestron system that doesn't have the code. In most cases not only do you pay to reprogram the whole system...you pay to have the new company trace wires and try to figure out how the system is configured. We typically take 2 weeks with 2 guys for discovery or a 20+ zone system with automation. Thats $10,000-20,000 before reprogramming begins. Then we bill for interface development and finally reprogramming.

What is missing in most of these examples is intelligence. In our Aussie example, the programmer lost the code. Why did the dealer not have a copy is left unanswered. Why did the programmer not have a back up? Not answered? Why did the programmer not rewrite that code for free as HE lost it.

What is missing from EVERY one of these discussions is responsibility. If code matters clients should insist upon obtaining a copy.

But since few participating here write code and have never spent any time developing a new GUI or module it is also not understood that there is no way to secure those innovations if the source code is given away. In configuration systems the code is secure. It's in the hands of the manufacturer but since the dealer is only enabling or disabling a feature it's great. What if you want to use the system differently? For most of you that is an impossibility. You don't code. You have no investment in intellectual property and you don't care if anyone who does loses their investment.

People go to Crestron because despite its flaws it is the best solution around. Issues with code get magnified but the majority have money issues associated with them, not bad dealers or incompetent programmers--which is what you are if you don't have your files backed up somewhere.

I have long argued that the authorized programming channel was the worst decision Crestron ever made. Programming should be in-house. Then a majority of these issues would evaporate. Of course, obtaining the code with final payment would not be a bad idea but that assumes responsibility. How many of you call yourselves Conservative and preach individual responsibility are now offering excuses for irresponsible or foolish behavior?

Alan

I actually thought I was pretty clear. Although it could have been a vindictive act, the programmer claimed to have been robbed, losing his main laptop and his backup server. Once he was replaced he didn't give a shit about any of the jobs he had done for us and no way was he redoing the program for free after it was "stolen". The fact that he refused to hand over the code was one of the reasons we decided to bring programming in-house. Not only would he not hand over the code but like most programmers he was not as good as he thought he was and charged for every minute of time he spent working on a job fixing his own issues because his code was far from clean.

Tweeterguy's description was spot on in relation to this guy and frankly most of the programmers we had ever used. The in-house guy turned out to be great but boy is he the exception rather than the rule.

So question for the integrators out there: Are you all doing custom programming for every residential system you install if you do Crestron? Say for instance the client wanted:

Whole Home Audio
< 8 video zones
Whole home lighting
Thermostats
Security Panel Integration
Door locks
Pool and/or Spa control (?)

Would you all do custom programming for a system like that? It seems like the days of doing a totally custom residential system would be pretty much over. With the control system companies partnering with manufacturers for drivers and with more TCP/IP control based devices seems like you stand to profit more by using the configurable systems like Control4, Savant, etc. Leave the custom Crestron systems to commercial buildings, hotels, conference centers, etc.

I may be wrong as I am not in the industry but have researched these systems a lot over the years. Seems the small benefit (in lots of cases no benefit or hindrance) that a residential user would get from a custom Crestron system does not justify the exponentially more expense and time. Also seems like the integrator could make more by getting in and out of the job quicker and cheaper.

Did not realize I would prompt such a lively discuss. Interesting to see both sides

I have very little experience with anything but Crestron so my opinion my be more biased but I will try not to be.

With Crestron offering pretty much all the hardware (audio matrix and sources, video matrix, lighting, thermostats, and door locks) and a vast majority of the modules for security and pool integration. I can't see why there would be a lot of custom written modules for these systems so code wise there shouldn't be any reason why a dealer couldn't hand over the simpl program/s. This will allow the homeowner the ability to swap a Blu-ray player or change cable boxes without having to change an interface.

The customization comes in the GUI. Majority of the integrators spend a lot of time and money on creating a custom designed GUI that they use for all their customers. Some integrators charge very little if anything to the customer for this, and no it isn't built into the programming cost (from my experience). Supplying this custom GUI to the homeowner is where I see a lot of the issue with handing over the files. I don't believe the integrator should be required to hand over the interface if it is of a customized nature where they have purchased the screens and icons from a GUI specialist (like GUIFX or C3). If a system is designed using Crestron graphics and/or non-purchased images, there should not be any reason why the integrator can withhold the graphic files.

With the release of Pyng and soon to be (maybe) Home Elements from Crestron I think that this customization will become less and less as the programming will become less customized and more configurable. At this time Pyng is pretty much a complete configurable system, however it cannot do video distribution and pool control but it wouldn't cost nearly as much to add these to a small processor and integrate Pyng into it as it would to program the whole system on a larger processor with custom screens for each aspect of the project.