All,

You may already know this but our state has much to figure out still regarding low voltage permitting.

I ran into a situation regarding a state L&I jurisdiction job outside of the Woodinville city limits a bit ago that nearly got us fined and though I should share.

I have been operating under the assumption that permits are not required for state jurisdiction residential jobs unless there is a security system involved (specifically fire) or if the job falls under the highly interpretive telecommunications guidelines (which mostly rules out residential customer side wiring). This assumption is based on the VERY clear RCW 19.28.470 (1) (b) where it states that "All installations in single family residences... do not require permits or inspections;" as related to telecommunication systems.

To back this assumption up, there is no way to pull an online permit for anything but security by square footage or telecommunication systems by square footage AND... no inspector has ever said ANYTHING to us about any system wiring other than security... EVER.

Back to this job... inspector was out for line voltage, carded my guys, said a permit was required for audio wiring but not network wiring and stated he would be fining us for no permit.

I scoured the regs and found specific language about low voltage permit requirements regarding class B permits for installations under 20 devices and 5000 square feet. This job in particular was over 5000 feet so it did not qualify for class B plus the above mentioned RCW passage seemed to override the need for a permit.

To shorten up the story, I took my case to L&I and they backed off admitting the following...

1. There are conflicts in the regs that need to be revised and clarified.
2. Telecommunication systems are not well defined.
3. There is no way to pull an online permit correctly unless the system involved security by square footage or telecommunication systems on the service side.
4. L&I can interpret the language any way they desire at any time.
5. The specific language in the class B permit section of the WAC (Specifically WAC 296-46B-908 (10)(c) that falls outside of the scope of RCW 19.28.470 (1)(b) is applicable.
6. They said I found a "Glitch" in the system... this after numerous emails and calls illustrating the passages and asking for clarification and getting no direct answer.

Unless someone knows of other passages in the regs which specifically address residential LV over 20 devices or 5000 square feet... I am not sure how to pull a permit for an install without security unless you go into the office directly or pull one for different requirements and just write in what you are actually doing.

This being a bureaucracy and all, sense does not always apply. The following probably could not happen, but I bet a lawyer with some juice could get this publicized and adjudicated sensibly.

How about applying for an install with security.
With zero security devices.
When they question you saying you don't have a license to install security, tell them:
*the regs seem to require a permit for low voltage;
*the only way to get a permit is to get a security permit;
*there is no regulation saying that a security permit cannot have zero devices;
*since you're installing zero security devices, permission to install security under your license is moot;
*they need to issue you a license or issue you a clear statement indicating that the work you are going to do does not require a permit.

That's something a bureaucrat can understand!

That inspector was ill informed. Audio only should not require a permit. I've been working here four decades.

I've mentioned before that I grew up in a family of contractors. And one thing I learned was don't fight with inspectors if you expect to make a living. While often they are wrong, and an individual can appeal to the state and make the inspector look like a bumbling idiot, if you have to deal with the inspector again, he's gonna f**k you over everything possible.

Also, pretty much every state gives the inspector the power to demand all rules and codes to be executed to the stricter of interpretations. So, in the event of any misunderstandings, if you plan to continue running a business, the best SOP is to say "Yes Sir, I clearly misunderstood the code. Can you show the requirements so I don't make the same mistake in the future". This accomplished two things. Most importantly, it establishes authority and stokes the inspector's ego. And second, it puts him on the spot to prove his demands. But if he can't prove them, still don't argue. Agree with him. Make him think you think he is smarter than you and you need him. In the end, it's more profitable than the other options.

In my experience going into the inspector's offices early with the posture 'hey let's discuss I want to be sure we're compliant so inspections run smoothly' goes a long way. It gives them the respect of their role and establishes you as a professional striving to learn all codes and regulations. You're in a different position with a potential infraction but posture will still matter: it appears you have a collaborative and not challenging attitide and that should go a long way.

I needed to pull permits and had some questions as some code language was a bit ambiguous: I went in and asked educated questions and it went over really well. The Sr Inspector came over and got involved and generally speaking they appreciated us coming in early to figure it out ahead of time and encouraged us to come back if we had more questions. I got the impression we were the exception and not the rule.

Get to know your building dept and the inspectors on a personal level. It makes it a little easier to work out these ambiguities with professional relationships established and they'll remember your firm's name which may pay off in the future.

Point 4, which states that they can interpret the regs in any way, at any time, is too ambiguous to make it enforceable. Contracts, laws & ordinances can't have this AND be legally binding because they all exist for the sake of specificity and accuracy.

I have dealt with some inspectors in the way BigPapa mentioned and it works very well. I did have one case where the FNG showed up at a relatively large house on the street with some of the highest priced real estate in the city and he told me that regular caulk isn't allowed for fire stopping around LV cabling and I disagreed. He got pissy about it and I asked him to call the head inspector, which he did. He set the phone to 'Speaker', so we could both hear that it IS allowed but rather than rub his face in it, I let him know that it's easy for some details to be interpreted differently and that he has to be difficult to remember all of the rules & regulations.

Another time, I was installing surveillance cameras on a bar/restaurant and along the rear of the building, the top of the wall is only about 12' high and I don't leave cabling exposed where it's easily accessible- at that point, they're video cameras, not security cameras because it only takes one nimrod who has a stick with a nail in it to screw up my cables. I got word that the local inspector wanted me to call and he told me that I needed a permit because he saw the conduit I had installed when he drove behind the building. I told him that I thought LV cabling didn't need a permit- he wasn't even sure what 'Low Voltage' meant. I explained why I wanted to use conduit and that there's no HV inside, that I would be grounding it to the meter box and then, I kind of changed the subject by saying that I had read about the possibility that Milwaukee would be requiring permits and license for LV installations. He looked it up and told me it was being talked about, but that it would be some time before it would happen before thanking me for calling.

It really is best to avoid pissing them off- I don't want to be the guy who causes a project to be delayed.

Inspectors have the little Caeser complex. If they are wrong, I'll certainly lay it out to them.

You would

Yes I would. There are some very good inspectors that understand the low voltage side of things, and some that do not.

Some are like bad cops, on their little power trips. SMDS


Small d*ck syndrome

Brilliant. Just brilliant. Argue with the person that has the power to shut you down

Pot, meet kettle.

Really, though, Mr. S: You are trying to do an installation and make some money, and if an inspector made a call that didn't make sense to you, you'd essentially tell him he had a small dick by questioning his knowledge and sense?

This would be a stupid thing to do and would at least make you lose money. And piss off your customer due to the resulting delay. And if you work for someone, perhaps make you lose your job.

But make your point. Go, Boy, Go!

The best advice here is to make them your friend and show that you care about what they are trying to do, which is to have only safe things made under their watch.

Most inspectors are reasonable... even Bob in Seattle whom most fear.

All you guys are correct when it comes to proactive reasonable dialogue. That is what I had with the supervising inspector. I have also disagreed with inspectors in the field and politely referred to the regs in their presence to resolve differences. So far I have never been wrong and never had an issue.

The real problem in this situation is that L&I is enforcing something that has no defined language, or at least complete language, in the regs.

That being said, I've never had a problem with an inspector. I just resent the fact that some of them have such an attitude.

They know they have the power, but some of them can be total power-tripping "You gotta kiss my arse" guys, that it is hard to take.

I play the game, but come on man (Like Bob in Seattle)... just relax, and don't try and intimidate us. Just do your job, without being a total hard-ass.

Don't you have a wall to scrape gum off of?

Yeah the gum wall at Pike's Place Market. 20 years worth of gum wads stuck on the sides of this building.Disgusting!

That, and gotta keep dodging those damn drones flying all over downtown! This Christmas there will be a couple million drones sold. Those bastards will be flying all over hell!!!

Saw one this morning hovering about 5 stories up in front of a condo window.

Back on topic though... Like police, there are good police (and good inspectors), and there are some real A-holes.

edit: didn't mean to repeat myself (The Tequila is talking)...