Harmony are fun consumer level remotes, but they a clumsy and limited in what they can do. Their limitations are both their weakness and their strength. They allow the user limited customizability but not so much that the inexperienced or A/V challenged could get them selves into trouble and need a rescue.

Any of these pro level remotes can do so much more. The limits are only based on the imagination (and the skill) of the programmer. Because of this they can work better or worse than the Harmony. Usually better. Macros happen faster, no commands get missed, buttons that are not needed disappear, they can be expanded beyond the one room. And once you go RF you'll never go back. No more missed codes, no more lighting conditions effecting the reception. No more standing there for 45 seconds while the Harmony does stuff one.... By one..... By one.

Ask you programmer to lay down in simple terms what he is going to do to make it work better than the Harmony. He should be able to tell you what the general flow of the macros will be and what, if any, special features he is going to add. If he's only spending an hour or two programming it, it's my opinion there will not be much customization.

If you don't like it, say no, just don't ever call him for support if it's not controlling something properly because it won't be because of his install.

Ask him if he does Pro Control. They are a nice one room remote, with RTI based software, that will offer RF control and fall in a price range somewhere between the RTI and the Harmony. They are not with out their own problems but all you have asked about it price, not reliability, and they are cheaper.

Craig

To answer the question, No.
The RTI T1B+ and a XP3 or XP6 will give you and nice control platform to control your equipment and have the ability to expand to other rooms or changes in equipment.
One thing to mention is the labels on that remote can be custom made to define what you want to do.

The drop in charger is nice, but in a bedroom you will need to hide it. The charge light is too bright.

This.

Not to mention that the T1B+ feels really good in the hand and the buttons have a really solid and reassuring feel. Very classy!

The other remote mentioned feels like cheap plastic...


And if he is charging you $1300 programmed for that system and you are getting an xp6, t1b+ and zm24, and vIRsa's you are getting a smoking DEAL if it includes the programming and installation! Even with an XP3 that is a great deal.

I, for one, have never programmed a Harmony. I have, however, tried to work with a client's existing Harmony and it was quite frustrating. It was also time-consuming, the enemy of installation cost.


This is completely right.
I can tell you what my programmed remote will do. I can't tell you all the difficulties of the Harmony because I spared myself that pain, after reading complaints about Harmonys here at remotecentral and seeing installers recommend to one another that Harmony product be avoided.


Exactly. "Not controlling something properly" is a phrase associated with Harmony controls.


Remember how the three basic qualities interrelate. People remember this not because it's amusing, but because it's true:

Just did a quote for a client for something very similar, T1B+, Xp3- Virsa eyes, installation programming etc and comes in just about £1,300, you do your own conversion for dollars.

RTI is a great platform, Ive done 2 Harmony remotes in my many years of doing this and it took me longer to program than RTI because it doesn't do what I want it to do, or more specifically I couldn't grasp why I had to jump through so many stupid hoops to get such a basic control, but I always strive to go the extra mile with my programming.

If you want harmony, do it yourself, if you want a professional control system get your av installer to do so.

He should be easily able to explain the difference between the harmony and rti solution.

FYI the quote i did was rejected by the client for being too expensive, the only reason i did the quote was because the wife cant deal with using so many remotes and hates it all, she just wants to watch TV.

If done properly, you will be very happy with the RTI.

I have programmed 1 Harmony. And the way their cloud based wizard software works, it drove me nuts. Slow to load on the remote, and no way to test commands or macros without doing a full load to the remote. Very time consuming.

Also, while Ive met a few customers that loved their Harmony remotes, I dont think any of their wives that liked the harmonys. They always found them slightly better than multiple OEM remotes. More than one wife has thanked me for replacing the Harmony with a properly programmed control system.

One advantage is that it's impossible to change the system/remote's configuration by pressing buttons on the remote. If you're the only one using the remote, it's probably not going to be a problem but if kids are involved an they "want to see what this button does", it can be a problem.

Most people who want to use something other than what they sell do it because they don't want to have to learn to set up a different brand that they aren't familiar with and I completely agree with this thinking. It's not possible to know everything about every brand and model of any device or category.

If your guy really knows how to program remotes it will work flawlessly. If not, it won't. However, if he or anyone else has never programmed a Harmony, don't expect them to be eager to learn the first one on a customer's system. You won't want to pay for the time he'll need to charge during the learning curve and if he charges what you think is reasonable, he'll lose his butt on that part of the job.

RTi, URC and many other remotes are capable of macro functions that Harmony remotes can't do and it's because Harmony never intended to be CI oriented, it has always been the intention that they were to be consumer-oriented. Also, Harmony has never been good at communicating with dealers since Logitech bought the company and it wasted enough time for many that they never want to see another Harmony remote. Ask if he has experience with Harmony- that may be the reason he wants to use the RTi, but he doesn't want to dump on another brand.

For the record, I do not sell Harmony remotes to my clients for the reasons that have been mentioned above. However, recently, I programmed 3 Harmony Ultimate remotes for a client. He already had 2, and bought a third for his new home because he liked them so much. After spending some time figuring out the software, and how to update/sync everything and then program and test, then tweak, and re-test, I was actually fairly impressed with it compared to any of the previous Harmony remotes I have had experiences with before. There were definitely limitations in the hardware, programming and UI, but honestly, I did not spend too much time trying to tweak the interface to be what I would consider "custom". He seemed happy enough with the way it functioned previously, so I saw no need to change it all up on him.

But it took more time than it would have to have installed and programmed on of the systems we do sell, and that I am familiar with. Of course, the next Hamony Ultimate I do will go much faster because I have experience now that I did not have before.

I just ran across this in another forum. It is his own comment, his own idea, and it was not in response to a challenge such as yours.


And I would add that URC and RTI are the two major brands we rely on.

Do you already own the niles IR system? If not which one? I want to see what it costs retail. If its $75 then it makes more sense to get that, use your existing remote and pray it works. If its $750 then obviously it's time to start thinking about replacing the old remote. You wouldn't put a $4000 engine in a car thats worth $6000.

Why does an installer suggest you go with RTI or URC or whatever brand? Because that is the brand they carry, support, know how to program, have the ability to service etc.

Your harmony one is an okay remote but i wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. If you wanted to use it i would leave it up to you to program it. I also wouldn't agree to an IR repeater system. I might install it for you if you bought it online but i would leave it up to you to get it working with the harmony.

If you had a Harmony Ultimate i would be more inclined to use that because IMO its a decent product for simple systems. You won't get the level of customization that you would with the T1B and you won't get the full range of hard buttons but it can be configured to work.

The $1300 sounds a little pricey but i guess that depends on the processor or base station, whether or not you have to pull new wire for controlling any of the devices and whether or not you left out something "simple" like you want to be able to control your thermostats lights and shades and the garage door and the front gates and the mail box flag at your vacation house. :) Sometimes people leave things off that cause the price to go up.

You could also forego all universal remotes. Just set six remotes on the table and use them all. Would save some money. Will that work? Yes, of course.

A harmony would work as well.

This is about convenience. Reliability. That will typically costs more. Its up to you to decide if convenience and reliability have a value.

I would NEVER have an IR remote. EVER. Period. In fact, our company policy is "we dont do IR remotes". Why? reliability. Just not worth it.

A lot of good responses, but none answer your question, WHY is RTI better than a Harmony.

Harmony works with power toggle commands. These are commands then are dual purpose. Think about your oem tv remote, press the power button and the TV turns on. Press the same button and the TV turns off. Works great on a remote where you are pressing a different button to complete your task. On a remote that is automating your processes, this can be problematic.

The Harmony remote uses these toggle commands and tracks the state of devices to know when to send the toggle command, and when not to send the command. Things can get out of synch, so when you want the TV to remain on for instance, the remote might actually turn the TV off. This is why the Harmony has the Help button, to send a series of commands to try and fix things when they get out of synch.

The IR system compounds these flaws, as you HAVE to keep the remote pointed at the IR eye for the entirety of the macro sending process. Harmony takes an obscenely long time to send the ON macros (I'm talking upwards of 30 seconds). So if you turn the remote during this process, or someone walks in front of the remote, game over. You now are relying on the Help button and a series of questions that need to be answered with yes or no answers to get the system up and running.


Now, on to the RTI system. This will rely on a good programmer to work well. There is no way to know that you installer is a good programmer, but lets say he is for the sake of this discussion. The RTI remote will use commands called discreet commands. These commands perform ONE function only. So a TV ON command will ONLY turn the TV on. Send the same command again, it will NOT turn the TV off. It won't do anything as the TV is already on. Same goes for TV off, input commands, or anything. Discreet commands will ONLY perform that one function. So now your programmer can tell the remote to perform EXACTLY the function he wants it to at every step of the process. These commands are a huge part of what makes people comment on the system being "bullet proof".

The RTI remote is also more flexible in allowing the programmer to perform more advanced levels of programming, basically if/else statements. This means he can program the remote for certain situations: IF cable activity is set to true, perform cable activity macro but do not send cable power toggle (cable boxes don't usually have discreet power commands), Else -> perform cable activity macro and turn cable box on. Very basic example, but you get the idea.

Lastly, the RF further adds to the "bullet proof" statements. Now, you are not relying on pointing a remote at the IR eye as the remote goes through its macro commands. Press the button and do whatever you'd like with the remote. Heck, the kids can put on a full on dance recital between the remote and the equipment/TV and everything will still turn on, every time, without fail. It's worth mentioning that most macros on the RTI will perform in a matter of 5 seconds, sometimes a little more or a little less depending on the power on delays of your equipment. Much shorter time than the Harmony remote.

So here are the MAIN reasons most folks will prefer a control system like RTI or URC over a Harmony. Hope this helps.

The comment about not being able to write macros makes me think he doesn't know that Harmony calls macro commands 'Sequence'. It's possible to scroll through input or other commands and add delays, but the number of added commands is limited. They do nothing with variables.

Some Harmony remotes can be used with an RF extender.