Denon X3100W
Episode 12ch-45watt Amp (bridging the speakers)
(7) Episode 500T 6 1/2 in ceilings
(3) Episode 300 All Weather DVC In ceilings
(2) Episode 100watt VCs

Very strange issue that I'm having at a customers house. New construction & I did the Pre Wire.

Simple 5.1 setup in living room.
Zone 2 consists of (2) kitchen speakers & (3) outdoor speakers.

The problem I am having is really spurratic. It only happen a when Zone 2 is on. Could happen 10 min after zone 2 is turned on or 10hours of continuous use. Sometimes it doesn't happen for 2 days, sometimes it's twice a day.

The Denon is going into protection mode. At first I thought it was best so I moved a cool components fan to directly on top of the Denon. Seemed to work for a day then it happens again. Thought maybe it was a bad receiver so I swapped it out and it still happened.

The wider thing is it's only when zone 2 is on. It's not setting the amp into protection mode, only the Denon. Very confusing and hard to troubleshoot. Spoke with Denon & Sn@p tech support to no avail.

Can the Rca or trigger cable cause the receiver to go into protection mode???

A shorted trigger? Maybe- it's not rated for high current, but I don't know how it's protected. If the amp and AVR are in the same place, try using a different one. Is the one being used a three or two conductor?

Turn the system off, leave the speakers connected to the power amp and disconnect the speaker wires from the Denon. Check for continuity between each speaker wire that was connected to the Denon and each of the speaker wires connected to the power amp. If all of the speaker cables pass through a common passageway that's close to the surface of the drywall, it's possible that a screw went into a couple of the cables and the problem only shows up when the power amp is on.

Check the

Even when using pre out only on Denon, they have always had shutdown problems when zone 2 is ramped up too high. Turn it down, turn up the input attenuators on any outboard amp.

If I see it is -10 or higher with Denon, I expect problems.

There was a known issue with zone 2 on Denons, where as if you turn the volume up over -5db (certainly over 0db), the amp would go into protection. Didn't matter if you were using the speaker outputs for zone 2 or not. It would do it regardless.

If this is what is happening, your fix is:
Go into the setup menu for zone 2 (under the General tab). Limit the volume to not go above -10db (or 70 if you changed the scale). Readjust the SnapAV amp's gain control, to give you the volume you want at the new max level.

[edit]: Dang it Tom, you beat me to it! :)

Take an ohm meter to each speaker wire, while they are detached from the AVR. Are the readings consistent to the other half of the speaker channel?

I understand that the ohm reading will be slightly different between the kitchen speakers and the main room speakers. But I am asking are the ohm readings the same with the left to right in the kitchen, then left to right to the main room and so on.

Also, I know Pioneer allows you to change the impedance from 8Ω to 6Ω for their AVRs. Does Denon allow the same?

KOT

I totally and in every detail agree with Tom Ciaramitaro. (Did I get that right?)

Apparently the zone 2 power amp acts like it's under a load, and can therefore overload. Maybe the Denon protection circuit senses voltage and not power. Whatever.


Bridging the amp, maybe?

All speakers mean pairs, right?


Wait... two kitchen and 3 outdoor makes five, but you have 7 Episode in-ceiling and 3 dual voice coil... how does that work out to five?

Did you try the same thing with the Sn@p amp totally disconnected? That would prove out that having the Denon at high volume is all that's required to make the Denon go into protection.


Maybe, but you can always disconnect them and see what happens. Turn the Zone 2 volume up to -5, maybe even 0. I'm sure it will go into protection.

One other thing, too -- if you don't have the Sn@p amp's volume up all the way, turn it up. Don't make the Denon volume have to be as high.

By the way, what speakers are the two volume controls on?

Ernie,
He did indeed leave out the exact configuration. But I guessed the (7) Episode 500T are part of the 7.1 surround system. And the (3) Episode 300 DVC are running off the Snap amp - that's 6 channels for those 3 Dual Voice Coil speakers. Which matches his 12 channel amp in bridged configuration.

Don't know what the volume controls are on but the (2) Kitchen speakers do throw things off.
Maybe a 5.1 system, and a set of the 500T are in the kitchen, running off the Snap amp. And 2 sets of the 300 DVCs are on the volume controls (impedance matching?) from a pair of channels from the Snap amp.

Correct

Correct

5 in living room, 2 in kitchen & 3 outside

No I have not, I will try that.

Great idea, right now the Denon is at 70 & Sn@p at 1/4 gain.

Kitchen has 2 speakers w/ VC & 3 outdoor speakers on a VC.

Thanks for everyone's input. This is the first zone 2 issue I've had with Denon in 3 years. I didn't know about that issue...I will turn the volume down & the gain up on the amp.

three DVC outdoor speakers on 1 VC?

I may have missed it since i just woke up, but I don't see a reference to speakers being connected to Zone 2, or not. If none are connected, go into Amp Assignment and make sure the extra channels aren't assigned to Zone 2 if you ONLY have the Zone 2 speakers connected to the Snap power amp. Then, go into Zone 2 volume control and set it to Fixed, with the volume limited to whatever corresponds to -10dB.

The only time an amplifier will have a problem with a volume control setting is when it needs a load and doesn't have one, when it sees a load it doesn't like or when the input level is too high and its protection circuit thinks it's passing DC.

FWIW, I have never had a problem with a receiver going into protection unless it saw a bad load, had a problem or was cranked to WOT. ANY time I install a system, I limit the maximum output level that's available to the end user because if they can crank it too high, they will and it doesn't matter whether it's accidental or intentional. If I'm using volume controls, I leave Zone 2 volume Fixed because there's no reason to make it possible for someone to use the AVR to decrease the level of Zone 2- if one person does that and someone else has decreased the level on the wall-mounted (or SSVC box) without knowing, someone will be receiving a service call. If I'm using no wall-mounted volume controls, I leave the volume limit at -10dB and set the control to Variable.

I have a Denon AVR-2313CI and my speakers don't present a simple load. I tested them and the impedance curve isn't flat or smooth, but I have had no instances of the receiver going into protection when using two or more channels. I ALWAYS set the volume limit to -10dB because I want to avoid running out of headroom- it's a receiver, not a power amp that's rated to deliver 35A-45A of output like some of the Parasound (and other) amplifiers.

If we could get info about:
speakers connected to Zone 2/or not?,
speaker wire gauge?,
DC resistance of all speakers connected to the AVR?,
AC voltage while the AVR is operating?,
What other equipment is sharing the circuit with the AVR?

Should be OK if the VC compensates for impedance.

I might have done that if he had not written


By then the two lists were different enough that I didn't trust


All GREAT advice.

I first learned about this problem with a Denon whose remote had push buttons to cycle between amp - tuner - multi control. Sure, I had an integrated remote on the system, a Marantz RC5200 at the time, but the daughter came to visit, eschewed the Marantz, and found the well-hidden (I thought) Denon remote. The fact that it did not have batteries daunted her not one whit; she got batteries and proceeded to invent this FU.

She wanted to use the radio, so switched to tuner. Then she discovered how to switch the remote to tuner control, and selected a station. She then pushed that function button one more time, landing herself on multi control, and turned up the volume. The VCs on the external speakers were all the way down, so she didn't hear any change. She had turned Zone 2 volume up all the way but did not realize it. She figured out that she had to hit the button one more time to get back to AMP control, she did so, and all was well. Then two days later, apparently the station that the tuner was on sent out a nice thump and the receiver quit dead. Service call. It was quite a surprise when I figured it out.


No speaker or speaker system presents a simple load. In well-designed speakers there's a resonance in the bass which results in a spike in impedance, then an area where the impedance drops to about the nominal value. The impedance above there depends on the number of drivers and whether those drivers have Zobel networks on them. And yes, some speakers designed without attention to the impedance curve sometimes offer horribly low impedance at certain frequencies. I've seen one that went below 2 ohms where the designer wanted very sharp cutoff of a woofer at a low frequency, and the did not know about looking at impedance curves.


It is never flat. Not smooth isn't a problem for an amp. You're bringing up facts that aren't relevant. I'm just trying to tell you not to spend too much time thinking about the impedance unless there's a very low point in the curve; and for that to be a problem it pretty much has to be in the bass.

When I write "not a simple load, I don't mean flat. I mean it's not a nice, little ripple from flat and the phase plot looks like a roller coaster from hell. You don't need to go into this kind of detail to tell someone that you think they need to have this explained to them.

If I felt the need to get someone's explanation for a comment like that, I would probably write "Care to tell us what you mean by your comment about "...simple load..."?

Also, I built my speakers and, after seeing the impedance curve, I left it alone so I could find out how the previous Denon AVR would handle it. I haven't changed the crossovers in three years. The drivers are off the shelf, but the crossovers aren't and they weren't a kit.

I may be experiencing this zone 2 issue on an X4700 or at least it sounds like it.

The observations:
1.The AVR goes into DC protection with only zone 1 active or only zone 2 active.
2.Zone 2 is signal out only (no speakers connected) to an external Parasound ZAMP.
3.The client regulary listens to zone 2 over 70 on the 0-100 scale because the ZAMP maxed is not enough.

Here is the unusual bit about this system:
1. Surround and surround backs are both connected to Niles SL-ONE speaker level switches (one for each pair).
2. Denon AVR sourround and surround back speaker outputs are run into the switcher A channel inputs.
3. Parasound ZAMP speaker outputs are run into the switcher B channel inputs.
4. Parasound ZAMP is fed signal from the Denon AVR zone 2 output.

The sensing on the SL-ONE units switches from A (Denon surround inputs) to B (ZAMP inputs via zone 2) when signal is present on the ZAMP speaker outputs and then returns to A after a timer expires once signal is no longer present.

When zone 2 is active (music mode), zone 1 remains on if it was on prior but I mute it so the front speakers are silent. The TV and speakers are behind closed doors when not watching TV

It is VERY likely the client had been listening to music at levels beyond 70 because of the anemic output of the ZAMP. The amp has gone into protection while listening to zone 2.

When zone 1 is active (TV Surround mode), zone two should always be off however, the volume may have been left higher than 70 when zone 2 was shut down. The AVR has gone into protection without zone 2 on (I believe).

Either we have a zone 2 load issue or the SL-ONE speaker switcher(s) are freaking out the AVR or the AVR is flakey.

Thoughts???

I think I have fixed a handful of Denon systems where zone 2 was cranked, even if there were no speakers connected to zone 2. You may need something with more steam than the Z-amp, so you can keep the zone 2 output lower.