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Staying on budget
This thread has 11 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Wednesday November 12, 2014 at 22:09
brucewayne
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Some of techs at my job were talking about how they will be on a job and let's say 35 hours were budgeted for the job. The 35th comes around 3pm if the tech stay till 5 and make sure everthing is perfect they will have spent 39 hours on the job. Now the techs didn't have any jobs in the area and would end up going back to the shop and those 4 hours 2 hours per tech . Were not billed out . Is there a hidden cost or reason to have the tech come back to the shop instead of stay at the job and make sure things are perfect.

I'm asking because I'm not an owner and might be missing something . But if we didn't get paid for those 2 tech for the last 2 hours of the day wouldnt it be better to have them work in the field instead of at the shop.
brucewayne
Post 2 made on Wednesday November 12, 2014 at 22:42
tweeterguy
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Let's be real here, how often is the job 100% perfect at the end of those allocated hours? If it truly is and you come back to the shop, well then "if you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean". There's always something to do.
Post 3 made on Wednesday November 12, 2014 at 23:25
highfigh
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On November 12, 2014 at 22:09, brucewayne said...
Some of techs at my job were talking about how they will be on a job and let's say 35 hours were budgeted for the job. The 35th comes around 3pm if the tech stay till 5 and make sure everthing is perfect they will have spent 39 hours on the job. Now the techs didn't have any jobs in the area and would end up going back to the shop and those 4 hours 2 hours per tech . Were not billed out . Is there a hidden cost or reason to have the tech come back to the shop instead of stay at the job and make sure things are perfect.

I'm asking because I'm not an owner and might be missing something . But if we didn't get paid for those 2 tech for the last 2 hours of the day wouldn't it be better to have them work in the field instead of at the shop.

Personally, if a job isn't done and there's still time in the typical work day that could be used to finish it, I would never leave and make it necessary to explain why someone has to go back for the same number of hours, especially when travel is billed for. To a client, that looks like the bill is being padded. They do pay attention to this kind of thing, as much as they act like they aren't and we don't believe they are. Obviously, many are completely oblivious to it, but it's a conversation I prefer to avoid.

From where we are, it's hard to know why someone would leave- is the job being billed on a firm quote, is it an estimate that has some wiggle room for extras, is it T&M?

If I had employees that returned to the office/shop rather than finish the job, they'd have some splainin' to do.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 4 made on Wednesday November 12, 2014 at 23:43
Ernie Gilman
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On November 12, 2014 at 22:09, brucewayne said...
Some of techs at my job were talking about how they will be on a job and let's say 35 hours were budgeted for the job.

Brings us back to this: was a labor quote given, or a labor estimate?

The 35th comes around 3pm if the tech stay till 5 and make sure everthing is perfect they will have spent 39 hours on the job.

If the techs leave without everything being perfect, they have left before the job is done. Again, quote versus estimate: if the salesperson gave a quote, then the client does not pay extra for it taking extra for the crew to finish the job and make sure everything is perfect. If it's an estimate, it better be obvious that those last couple of hours involve actual work. Realistically, those last couple of hours will either involve training the client or solving problems that weren't noticed until the client picks up the remote (it happens). In either case, the client is highly involved in those last couple of hours so, if reasonable, they will see it as billable. Now, if you spent the first couple of hours during the day throwing spitwads or talking on the phone....

Now the techs didn't have any jobs in the area and would end up going back to the shop and those 4 hours 2 hours per tech . Were not billed out . Is there a hidden cost or reason to have the tech come back to the shop instead of stay at the job and make sure things are perfect.

If the job is not perfect, the job is not done. The hidden cost is an unsatisfied customer and a reason for your client to be disappointed with the entire job.

I'm asking because I'm not an owner and might be missing something . But if we didn't get paid for those 2 tech for the last 2 hours of the day wouldn't it be better to have them work in the field instead of at the shop.

Whoa! "Didn't get paid"? Does your work agreement with the business call for you only to be paid for the hours that you work on site? Only to be paid for the amount of hours that someone else outside your control estimates the job? Be paid for whatever you do during the entire day?

In every case, the business gets value from you working those last couple of hours. If you are not paid to work at the site, you are being cheated. If you are not paid for those last couple of hours work at the business, you are being cheated. I've worked full days by the hour and I've worked being paid only for time on site. We completed every job and never walked away until everything was perfect. But when I was being paid only for work on the site, I NEVER went back to the business and did any work for them there; I was an independent contractor, not an employee.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 5 made on Thursday November 13, 2014 at 18:27
brucewayne
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The job was t&m but the client had a budget and only wanted pay up to a certain price .

Ernie the techs are paid by the hour and are paid the same if there At the shop or out in the field.

Basically the techs feel if they go over budget They will catch heat but If they leave And little things like soMe wires have labels written with a sharpie instead of the P-touch in the rack They will get in trouble.
brucewayne
Post 6 made on Thursday November 13, 2014 at 18:37
osiris
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If the techs are doing a good job at a reasonable speed, then there is no reason they should catch heat if it takes longer than was estimated- that is on the estimator, or maybe one of those things just came up that comes up from time to time. I suppose businesses are all different, but I would think the priority should always be to do the job properly and as well as can be done.
Post 7 made on Thursday November 13, 2014 at 21:57
adamav
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On November 13, 2014 at 18:37, osiris said...
If the techs are doing a good job at a reasonable speed, then there is no reason they should catch heat if it takes longer than was estimated- that is on the estimator, or maybe one of those things just came up that comes up from time to time. I suppose businesses are all different, but I would think the priority should always be to do the job properly and as well as can be done.

+100, happy client should ALWAYS be your priority. I would be upset if my tech came back to the shop early from an unfinished ( or poorly finished ) job because of the " budget " hours.
Happy client may share his positive experience about Your company with SOME of his friends , yet unhappy one will tell EVERYBODY about the job poorly done.
Post 8 made on Thursday November 13, 2014 at 23:25
Mac Burks (39)
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Every job has something that wastes a lot of time but for the most part you should be able to get close when estimating time. If you find that you are way off at every project then you aren't planning properly and you need to get that sorted out.

If you need an extra hour or two at the end of a project then i don't think its a big deal. Things happen. If those things are your fault (you guys drop a TV and have to waste an hour going to buy a new one) then you eat it. If those things are the clients fault (anything from customer supplied crapware to the clients electrician making a mistake or arriving on time and finding that the client is using a specific room and doesnt want anyone in it for an hour...forcing you to stay late) then the client pays for those additional hours.
Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 9 made on Friday November 14, 2014 at 01:50
tgrugett
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On November 13, 2014 at 18:27, brucewayne said...
The job was t&m but the client had a budget and only wanted pay up to a certain price .

Ernie the techs are paid by the hour and are paid the same if there At the shop or out in the field.

Basically the techs feel if they go over budget They will catch heat but If they leave And little things like soMe wires have labels written with a sharpie instead of the P-touch in the rack They will get in trouble.

You are describing a hybrid job. To me there are three basic types of jobs.
1. Bid
2. T&M
3. Estimate with do not exceed (without change order)

I work almost exclusively with #3. If you are responding effectively to the variables that often happen and your communication with your techs is fluid, then you can issue change orders to increase the cap if warranted. I think the ultimate key is having clear contracts and/or clear expectations with your clients. I find that if you are very transparent and honest about the process, most people with means understand this.

That said, my comments do not actually address the OP which I can empathize with. I am going through growth pains now trying to develop new techs and this subject is staring me in the face. I am generally successful at meeting my own estimates and expectations when I am hands on in all phases (sales, install, programming, etc...) but I have too much work to do it all myself. I find that my techs, despite their skill level and experience, often cannot meet the same expectations. My challenge... and every owner's challenge is to develop the proper culture and reward this appropriately. Unfortunately, in the end, no one benefits (owner, employee, client) if the full package of quality, efficiency and communication is not met or delivered. This often succeeds or fails during the last 10% of the job.
Post 10 made on Friday November 14, 2014 at 13:28
Mr. Stanley
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On November 13, 2014 at 18:27, brucewayne said...
The job was t&m but the client had a budget and only wanted pay up to a certain price .

Ernie the techs are paid by the hour and are paid the same if there At the shop or out in the field.

Basically the techs feel if they go over budget They will catch heat but If they leave And little things like soMe wires have labels written with a sharpie instead of the P-touch in the rack They will get in trouble.

Personally they'd catch heat from me if they left a few hours early, and then had to return again!

I never give out totally cast in stone fixed labor estimates... they are ESTIMATES and I make that very clear to the client.
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 11 made on Saturday November 15, 2014 at 20:38
davenport
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On November 13, 2014 at 18:27, brucewayne said...
The job was t&m but the client had a budget and only wanted pay up to a certain price .

Ernie the techs are paid by the hour and are paid the same if there At the shop or out in the field.

Basically the techs feel if they go over budget They will catch heat but If they leave And little things like soMe wires have labels written with a sharpie instead of the P-touch in the rack They will get in trouble.

The bigger issue here is that you're working T&M rather than with a specific contract and expecting to be paid extra for time without a change order. Hopefully the Norwalk that you're referring to is outside CA since you're not even allowed to operate T&M above $500.

I almost always work beyond the hours that I estimate since I base the time on how fast I could complete the job, rather than how I prefer to operate, which is carefully at a high standard. Working 39 hours rather than 35 is not a big deal and should just be accounted for on the next estimate if an ongoing issue rather than a learning curve of the installer.

I'd rather have techs at a project working on that final 5% that is often overlooked than being in a shop.
Post 12 made on Sunday November 16, 2014 at 05:31
Mario
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On 1415939148, Mac Burks (39) said...
If you need an extra hour or two at the end of a project then i don't think its a big deal. Things happen. If those things are your fault (you guys drop a TV and have to waste an hour going to buy a new one) then you eat it. If those things are the clients fault (anything from customer supplied crapware to the clients electrician making a mistake or arriving on time and finding that the client is using a specific room and doesnt want anyone in it for an hour...forcing you to stay late) then the client pays for those additional hours.

I think it's important to clarify that when Mac says that "if it's your fault, you eat it", he's saying that the business owner eats it, not employee.
In almost all cases (if not all), hourly employee has to be paid for all his working hours, regardless of fault.
Independent contractors and salaries people are obviously handled differently.


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