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Topic:
Slight rant
This thread has 20 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 21.
Post 16 made on Sunday October 26, 2014 at 12:01
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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That blue supply is nuts because it's such a nice lever hanging off of two prongs of an electrical plug. How often do these fall out of outlets? I bet they do!

A wall wart with a 3" or 6" cable will hang from the plug with more force on the plug than the blue power supply, so it's more likely to come loose. That's a reason not to have a cord that short. Even 12" might be too short. It has to be plug into a normal house outlet, usually 12" to 16" off the floor, then not hang by the wire. That might even be a UL requirement, who knows?

On October 26, 2014 at 10:47, Anthony said...
Not really
1) UL certification is not strictly necessary (and so nothing stops a company from selling a product with out it)

No product that plugs into the wall can legally be sold in the City of Los Angeles unless it is UL approved. My recent quest for European sockets revealed that some companies will not sell them in the United States because they are not UL approved. So what you say may be true, but in practice UL is "needed" at some point.

2) UL certification can be applied to internal parts just as much as external (for example my desktops internal power supply has been UL certified)

Well, duh: that's the entire freakin' reason for going with an external power supply! A manufacturer can have twenty products that only see low voltage; use external, UL approved wall warts, and when they want to introduce a new product, that product does not need to have its power supply approved by UL, costing time and money.

3) UL certification is not only for power supplies

That's irrelevant. The fact that it is not only for power supplies has nothing to do with the subject, which is its requirement for power supplies.

I think it is more for

1) ease of manufacture - think of a wireless router, you won't bring it with you on vacation, it is a fixed universal standardfor everywhere in the world, so it is easier for the manufacturer to build them all 100% the same and then add the right wart to the box depending on where it will be shipped

You don't see the lack of need for UL, or CE, certification of each product to be an advantage for the manufacturer? This is not just ease of manufacture, though that is true. It also lowers the cost of manufacture.

2) size - people are stupid and say "look how small ____ is" when it does not matter so removing the power supply helps with that

True, but you can't fix stupid. "Look, if we (manufacturer) meet our goal of spending less money on a product by avoiding the need for UL approval for every SKU, the unit will be smaller and people who can't see our main goal will think we worked hard to make it smaller!"

3) heat - power supplies run hot, having them external means it is one less issue to deal with in the design of the product.

Another benefit that goes along with lowering costs by using external power supplies.

But what ever the reasons for why external is better than internal it is not all that interesting.

Okay, except that is the subject of interest at the moment. Sure, I'm not going to think over this post several times today -- it's not that interesting. But I think it's worthwhile to be able to see big issues like manufacturing costs and assign big value to them, instead of littler issues like the size of the unit.



Since Instead of something like the one on the left with the plug built into the wart and is a bitch to use the manufacturers of the warts could easily build something like the one on the right with a 6" or even 3" cable going to the plug and the issue of why use an external power supply would be mostly moot and the wart issue solved.

Once again, you do not seem to want to see the cost of doing it one way versus the other. The supply on the left is cheaper to make than the supply on the right. The cost of the two different enclosures are very different, the wall wart being much cheaper. Yes, the manufacturers could easily build the one on the right. In fact, the manufacturer of the actual product usually doesn't built the supply AT ALL, so there is ZERO DIFFICULTY for the product manufacturer in choosing to use the product on the left or the right. That leaves cost and size as the determining factors.

I'm not saying that anything you have pointed out is wrong. I'm saying that cost is probably the deciding factor and every other advantage just follows along.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 17 made on Sunday October 26, 2014 at 14:18
goldenzrule
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On October 26, 2014 at 12:01, Ernie Gilman said...


Once again, you do not seem to want to see the cost of doing it one way versus the other. The supply on the left is cheaper to make than the supply on the right. The cost of the two different enclosures are very differnt, the wall wart being much cheaper. Yes, the manufacturers could easily build the one on the right. In fact, the manufacturer of the actual product usually doesn't built the supply AT ALL, so there is ZERO DIFFICULTY for the product manufacturer in choosing to use the product on the left or the right. That leaves cost and size as the determining factors.

I'm not saying that anything you have pointed out is wrong. I'm saying that cost is probably the deciding factor and every other advantage just follows along.

both options are ridiculous. For once it would be nice for cost to NOT be the deciding factor. Save for getting the large multi device dc power supply there is no way to make a clean install using these products. What I have to find out is do you have to cut the end off the power plugs for all my devices to use the multi device units? That would mean if for some reason we had to remove the a device we would have to either splice the power supply back on or source a new wire. Not ideal
Post 18 made on Sunday October 26, 2014 at 16:15
edizzle
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They do it because it is the most common part to go bad and it is much easier and cost effective to replace the external power supply vs internal. But it does suck majorly. I freaking hate it. Get a rack pimped out and then totally eff it up with bricks everywhere.
I love supporting product that supports me!
Post 19 made on Sunday October 26, 2014 at 16:38
Anthony
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On October 26, 2014 at 12:01, Ernie Gilman said...
wall wart with a 3" or 6" cable will hang from the plug with more force on the plug than the blue power supply, so it's more likely to come loose. That's a reason not to have a cord that short. Even 12" might be too short. It has to be plug into a normal house outlet, usually 12" to 16" off the floor, then not hang by the wire. That might even be a UL requirement, who knows?

I disagree with it being an issue any more than true wart but they were just examples so if you like better how about a 16" cable?

No product that plugs into the wall can legally be sold in the City of Los Angeles unless it is UL approved.

yeah I know for some places it is a rule. But the point still remains meaningless since
a) the device can be sold in surrounding areas that don't have such code in their laws
b) it is sales and not usage. So it is not a big deal for anything plugged in.
c) can you tell me what would be the "penalty" if a shop is selling none UL certified equipment? and how many inspectors LA has to search out such brigands?


Well, duh: that's the entire freakin' reason for going with an external power supply! A manufacturer can have twenty products that only see low voltage; use external, UL approved wall warts, and when they want to introduce a new product, that product does not need to have its power supply approved by UL, costing time and money.

not sure what you mean since it has nothing to do with what I said

let's say someone in LA goes to a computer store to buy a computer, are you saying it would be illegal for that shop to sell him a desktop with the specs he wants unlike a laptop?

That's irrelevant. The fact that it is not only for power supplies has nothing to do with the subject, which is its requirement for power supplies.

no it is not, look at the power cord you bought or that graphics card for your computer...... you are assuming it is either external power supply or the whole device. That is wrong

You don't see the lack of need for UL, or CE, certification of each product to be an advantage for the manufacturer? This is not just ease of manufacture, though that is true. It also lowers the cost of manufacture.

CE is different since it is the EU UL is a company that sells a service, but you are still missing the obvious because you are assuming it only applies to power supplies, it does not anything electrical needs the same certification be it internal or external.

Okay, except that is the subject of interest at the moment.

that is not what I meant. I am saying that the exact reasons and making an ordered list is not that important. In the fundamentals we agree that there are many reasons why an external power supply makes sense

Once again, you do not seem to want to see the cost of doing it one way versus the other. The supply on the left is cheaper to make than the supply on the right. The cost of the two different enclosures are very different, the wall wart being much cheaper.

Can you tell me exactly how much, since you appear to know?
...
Post 20 made on Sunday October 26, 2014 at 21:48
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On October 26, 2014 at 14:18, goldenzrule said...
both options are ridiculous. For once it would be nice for cost to NOT be the deciding factor.

Wait: are you saying that and actually in business? A company that sells a product with an integrated power supply for $20 more than an otherwise equal product will sell fewer items.

Do you ignore the prices of things when you buy... a car, a drill, zucchinis or even zambonis, anything, and just buy whatever is on the shelves? Are you saying you've never gone to a sale?

Save for getting the large multi device dc power supply there is no way to make a clean install using these products.

True, but that is our problem, not the manufacturer's problem. Re the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy, for the manufacturer this is an SEP: someone else's problem.

What I have to find out is do you have to cut the end off the power plugs for all my devices to use the multi device units? That would mean if for some reason we had to remove the a device we would have to either splice the power supply back on or source a new wire. Not ideal.

No, not at all.

I don't follow -- what's a multi device unit?
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 21 made on Sunday October 26, 2014 at 22:29
goldenzrule
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On October 26, 2014 at 21:48, Ernie Gilman said...
Wait: are you saying that and actually in business? A company that sells a product with an integrated power supply for $20 more than an otherwise equal product will sell fewer items.

Do you ignore the prices of things when you buy... a car, a drill, zucchinis or even zambonis, anything, and just buy whatever is on the shelves? Are you saying you've never gone to a sale?

True, but that is our problem, not the manufacturer's problem. Re the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy, for the manufacturer this is an SEP: someone else's problem.

No, not at all.

I don't follow -- what's a multi device unit?

I question whether you stay in business if price drives your purchases. I could easily sell a radio shack all in one remote for $20 and get rid off all the remotes laying around, or I can sell URC at a minimum of $299 and on up to thousands. The radio shack option would have me out of business by years end. No doubt about that. I pick and choose products that make things easier both for us and my clients, not what's cheapest. What's BEST. For once it would be nice to see a manufacturer do the same.
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