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Alarm Question
This thread has 15 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Wednesday August 13, 2014 at 14:27
osiris
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The company I work for is new to the alarm game- we always used to sub it out, but then the company we subbed it to decided to try and get into the AV/Automation game as well and so we have moved it in-house. I'm working on a design and proposal, and the experienced alarm guy we hired is on vacation, so I'm asking here.

I have a standard alarm system in the main house- now the homeowner has decided to build a detached "garage" structure that he also wants to have on the same system. The detached structure is a few hundred feet away, and the contractor laid 1.5" conduit between the main house and the garage, so I am trying to limit the amount of cables I have to pull, as I also have network and audio/video needs in the detached building.

My question is: can I simply put a zone expander (it's a DSC system) in the detached garage to allow for the additional devices (one keypad, 4 doors, 1 motion/GB), and run a single cat5e cable back to the main alarm panel to allow for the communication?
Post 2 made on Wednesday August 13, 2014 at 15:35
King of typos
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I know very little about alarms. Especially the current models. One question that I would ask. Will the home owner be able to set the alarm for this new addition while keeping the main de-active? Or even the other way around? Would the ho would even want that ability? Or do they want to set the alarm for both and have it at that?

KOT
Post 3 made on Wednesday August 13, 2014 at 15:40
Ernie Gilman
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The conduit description was a bit alarming, no pun intended, until I realized you probably meant the 1 1/2" was for your stuff, and power conduit was separate. Right?

We always talk about the theory of keeping wires that might cause interference separate from our wires, but in the real world here I don't remember anybody ever discussing problems.

However, whenever I go looking for signals with a toner wand, I hear all sorts of crap radiating from any alarm wires I run across. I believe I'm hearing that "communication" you're talking about. Is it even an acceptable idea to run alarm wires alongside your A/V wiring?

If it's not (all right, now I'm just making stuff up), then you could have a separate panel in the outbuilding that outputs relay connections which are sensed inside the house at the main panel. That way there would only be DC going through the conduit until a relay is tripped, at which point a momentary click is the only possible noise that could radiate from the wire... which could be shielded. Or yeah, CAT5 could probably be used. Sometimes I think it's better than shielded wires.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 4 made on Wednesday August 13, 2014 at 16:05
WhiteVan Lifestyle
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On August 13, 2014 at 14:27, osiris said...

My question is: can I simply put a zone expander (it's a DSC system) in the detached garage to allow for the additional devices (one keypad, 4 doors, 1 motion/GB), and run a single cat5e cable back to the main alarm panel to allow for the communication?

Yes, I would power the zone expander locally and use cat5e/cat6 for data only.
Safe 'n Sound Central Coast CA www.mysafensound.com [Link: facebook.com]
Post 5 made on Wednesday August 13, 2014 at 17:37
Trunk-Slammer -Supreme
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In answer to the questions put forth by KOT:


Yes, the alarm panels I have dealt with allow for "partitions", which means the outbuilding would pretty much work as a stand alone system.

And yes, if the client is aware of this option, they would likely want it.
Post 6 made on Wednesday August 13, 2014 at 20:21
gkornato
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DSC zone expander connects to the four wire keybus. From the DSC manual:

-Minimum 22 AWG wire, maximum 18 AWG (2-wire twisted preferred
-Do NOT use shielded wire
-Modules can be home run, connected in series or can be T-tapped provided
that the maximum wire distance from the control panel to any
module does not exceed 1,000 feet (305m)

I would get proper gauge 4-wire instead of Cat-5. No problem powering from the main board.

Definately put it on a separate partition as it simplifies arming, etc.
Post 7 made on Wednesday August 13, 2014 at 22:00
ErikS
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Run a 22/4 from panel in house to hub in garage. Home run all runs in garage to said hub. Add keypads, zone expanders as needed, etc. Ernie is right that a toner wand emits a lot of noise when near a keybus line but we have ran them together with other wires in past without noticed effects.

For the partition, I would suggest putting it on its own. You can still access it from the house keypads by holding the # key down for 5 seconds and then select the partition you would like to control. It helps to rename them because by default partition 1 is "System" and partition 2 is "partition 2" which usually doesn't make sense to the end user.
Post 8 made on Wednesday August 13, 2014 at 22:35
pesci
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run a 22-12 multi to kp. you have 4 conductors for keybus, 2 for power devices, 2 for circuit, that leaves 4 conductor to either series in zones or split up. make your splice or junction behinf kp in a 2 gang. everyhting color coded and pairs for service (rbgw-KP, or/br-motion power, bl/yel for circuit, tan/grey-drs, pink/purp -drs.... now everything is dedicated back to panel and seperate at same time. def make it partition 2.

run all your zones to kp

run a 18-2 for a horn over there....
Post 9 made on Thursday August 14, 2014 at 08:17
SWOInstaller
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We don't deal with DSC systems so not familiar with all their equipment, however if this was a system we were installing here is what we would do.

Run 2x 22/4 or 18/4 from house to Garage (1 is spare)
- Install local power supply and zone expander in enclosure(s) in garage
- Run all garage devices back to the above enclosure(s)
- When programming, make the garage a second partition and probably not allow for any Stay zones (unless there is a granny flat above the garage). This will allow the home owner to Stay arm the house and away/full arm the garage.
- If home owner wants a siren out there run an 18/2 from the house to power it
You can't fix stupid
Post 10 made on Thursday August 14, 2014 at 12:05
Ernie Gilman
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One detail question from a non-alarm guy: why run an 18-2 from the house to power a siren? I'd think if there's local power to run the zone expander, that could run a siren. I expect the enclosure has a backup battery, so power loss isn't an issue, at least not immediately. Was this perhaps to run a siren signal from the outbuilding back to a siren in the house to alert the main house? In which case, why not a dry contact?
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 11 made on Thursday August 14, 2014 at 14:24
Gman
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+1. Put an external power supply at the garage zone expander. Then use cat cable to your keybus.
Post 12 made on Thursday August 14, 2014 at 15:02
SWOInstaller
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On August 14, 2014 at 12:05, Ernie Gilman said...
One detail question from a non-alarm guy: why run an 18-2 from the house to power a siren? I'd think if there's local power to run the zone expander, that could run a siren. I expect the enclosure has a backup battery, so power loss isn't an issue, at least not immediately. Was this perhaps to run a siren signal from the outbuilding back to a siren in the house to alert the main house? In which case, why not a dry contact?

Ernie, most security systems only have one Siren/Bell output. You want both sirens to sound during an alarm whether it be in the house or the detached garage and the easiest way to do this is to terminate both sirens onto the Siren/Bell output.
You can't fix stupid
Post 13 made on Sunday August 17, 2014 at 13:06
billbailey71
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I have done this scenario hundreds of times and I always run 2 22/4 in the same conduit with other low voltage wire without a problem. Only one 22/4 is needed , the second one could run a siren, the keypad and the zone expansion module both use the same 22/4 keybus wire. If you are going to be powering several devices that need power you can use a PC5200 power supply module with a transfomer and back up battery to power your devices locally. Another option for putting a siren in the second building is to use a PC5204, its the same power supply as the PC5200 but adds 4 relays that you can use to power sirens, strobes etc...
Post 14 made on Sunday August 17, 2014 at 13:16
WhiteVan Lifestyle
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On August 14, 2014 at 14:24, Gman said...
+1. Put an external power supply at the garage zone expander. Then use cat cable to your keybus.

Exactly, but cat 5 to data terminals only. Use multiple pair at that distance.
I have jobs that run a couple thousand feet to multiple show homes with zone expanders on the same panel and local power is a must.
Safe 'n Sound Central Coast CA www.mysafensound.com [Link: facebook.com]
Post 15 made on Sunday August 17, 2014 at 19:30
Proggieus
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On August 14, 2014 at 15:02, SWOInstaller said...
Ernie, most security systems only have one Siren/Bell output. You want both sirens to sound during an alarm whether it be in the house or the detached garage and the easiest way to do this is to terminate both sirens onto the Siren/Bell output.

He could just use the DSC aux power supply that has 4 PGMs on it(sorry model escapes me now) and then program a PGM to act as a siren output.
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