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What cable should I use to extend cameras
This thread has 22 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 12:43
Craig Aguiar-Winter
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Hello everyone.

A client I've done a lot of work for has four cameras installed (came with the house). Their cables are fed to a location beside the electrical panel and I want to extend the cables about 20ft each to a rack I installed in a utility room. The cable in question is a RG59 Siamese cable. I. In the past I would have just attached whatever coax I had on hand but I have been reading the A/V Installer's Pocket Cable Guide (maybe not the exact title) as recommended by Ernie, and if there is one thing I have leaned it's that there is way more to choosing a cable than I previously knew.

In an effort to do the best job I can, I ask what kind of cable should I extend these cameras with? I asked one of my suppliers if I can just use the RG6 cable that I have (quad shield with copper clad steel conductor) and he said no it won't work. I asked why, he said the larger center conductor in RG6 makes it incompatible. My first instinct was that's a load of crap but then I realized I actually don't know if he's wrong. He didn't give me enough of information to back up his statement though so I'm still inclined to think he has no idea what he's talking about.

Unfortunately I don't have any specs on the cameras. With out that can someone tell me what the typical cable used for this application is or can use my RG6 quad and separate power wires to make the extension? I don't plan to get into security so I don't want buy 500 or 1000 ft of cable just for this one job. But if I need to I will.

Thanks, Craig.
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 2 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 13:11
ericspencer
Active Member
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Personally its more the CCS center (and likely foil and aluminum shield) that would turn me away from what you have. I have always used a CCTV grade coax RG59 or RG6 that has a copper braid and solid copper center for baseband video applications. There are some companies that make premade coax/power cables that might work well for you. I have used these from vanco [Link: vanco1.com]
Not my circus, not my monkeys
Post 3 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 13:42
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On July 25, 2014 at 12:43, Craig Aguiar-Winter said...
Hello everyone.

A client I've done a lot of work for has four cameras installed (came with the house). Their cables are fed to a location beside the electrical panel and I want to extend the cables about 20ft each to a rack I installed in a utility room.

The first thing to consider is that twenty feet is not a lot of distance.

The cable in question is a RG59 Siamese cable.

So you're dealing with plain old composite video plus power for the camera.

I. In the past I would have just attached whatever coax I had on hand but I have been reading the A/V Installer's Pocket Cable Guide (maybe not the exact title) as recommended by Ernie, and if there is one thing I have leaned it's that there is way more to choosing a cable than I previously knew.

Keep in mind, though, that this is the Installers Pocket Cable Guide, not the Extenders Pocket Cable Guide... okay, that's a bit of a joke. What I mean is that it goes quite deeply into what cable to choose to be the best for each situation. The longer you do this work, though, the more you'll find that reality is not quite as stringent as theory, except with digital signals, and you can read about the digital cliff in that book.

In an effort to do the best job I can, I ask what kind of cable should I extend these cameras with?

Best practice: The same cable.

I asked one of my suppliers if I can just use the RG6 cable that I have (quad shield with copper clad steel conductor) and he said no it won't work.

He's wrong. Here's what it is about "the same cable" that makes it appropriate: it's the same impedance and has the same shielding properties. RG6 and RG59 are both 75 ohm cables, so they will handle the video signal almost the same way. The difference is that the steel core of the CCS offers higher resistance to low frequencies, so it's not right for camera signals. Not right, I said? But wait -- it's only twenty feet! Because it's such a short distance and you're passing an analog signal, you should be just fine with RG6, even copper core.

If you notice that I'm going back and forth between saying yes, it's okay, and no, it's not, you're right. The book defines best practice, but there's a lot you can get away with if you have to. So... do you have to use RG6 because you don't have ANY RG59 and don't want to buy a thousand feet of it to make four twenty foot extensions?

Is that what's bothering you, Bunkie? (intermission now: )*

I asked why, he said the larger center conductor in RG6 makes it incompatible.

This is a person who does not understand the implications of the things he knows. Yes, it's larger, but it's 75 ohms. If he understood, he'd talk about the steel core.

My first instinct was that's a load of crap but then I realized I actually don't know if he's wrong.

It's not a huge load of crap, though!

He didn't give me enough of information to back up his statement though so I'm still inclined to think he has no idea what he's talking about.

He doesn't have enough information etc etc.

Unfortunately I don't have any specs on the cameras.

First, any camera for which RG59 siamese cable has been run can use RG59 siamese cable. Analog video is a 75 ohm signal.

Without that can someone tell me what the typical cable used for this application is or can use my RG6 quad and separate power wires to make the extension? I don't plan to get into security so I don't want buy 500 or 1000 ft of cable just for this one job. But if I need to I will.

Gee, just what I guessed.

If you use RG6 and zip cord, your signal will be fine but your installation will look like a complete effing amateur did it. The results for your client will be okay, but if anyone with an ounce of A/V sense (or not, like the client's kids, who know audio/video because they are investment bankers) comes along and looks at it, they will say, "gee, what the hell happened here? Didn't this guy know what he was doing?" I know I would!

So the reason to use RG59 in this case is to maintain your image, both on the monitors and personally, in your client's eyes. I don't know where one can buy siamese by the foot, but I think you can get RG59 by the foot from Home Depot! If not, you can get a hundred foot long cable from some online supplier, cut it to length and install BNCs. If you haven't installed BNCs before, drop me a PM here.

That's another thing -- if you use RG6, it will be more difficult to find BNCs for it than for RG59. You'll use F connectors, then somewhere an adaptor to BNC. And RG6 is stiffer than RG59, so it will be harder to connect to the back of the DVR. Based on my most recent experience with RG59, for that reason alone you don't want to use RG6. EDIT for clarity: Once more recently I experienced how difficult it is to connect a bunch of BNCs on RG59 to the connectors on the back of a DVR, which are really close together; I'd hate to have to do that with RG6 plus the needed F to BNC adaptor.

I'm sure Home Depot has some 18 ga two conductor or four conductor wire that you can buy by the foot and hook up to extend the power part of your camera wiring. You just don't want it to look like lamp cord.

Thanks, Craig.

You're welcome, Ernie



edit:
*The Old Philosopher, just one of those things that people who were around in the sixties might have heard once or twice and the name of whom they cannot, for the life of them, think of.

Last edited by Ernie Gilman on July 25, 2014 17:28.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 4 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 14:28
Craig Aguiar-Winter
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Thanks for the replies guys. I'm going to find some preterminated extensions. That sounds like the best and easiest plan.

Craig
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 5 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 15:13
highfigh
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On July 25, 2014 at 14:28, Craig Aguiar-Winter said...
Thanks for the replies guys. I'm going to find some preterminated extensions. That sounds like the best and easiest plan.

Craig

Or, install a small surface mount junction box up high and make your terminations there, so you can use whatever you find to extend it.

Splices don't need to look bad, but they often do. I use HeatNSeal butt splices for speaker, power and control wiring- the sleeve melts and shrinks, the metal ferrule makes the connection and the glue inside seals both ends, so water won't be a problem. This can be covered with shrink tubing. I usually cover coax splices with this, too.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 6 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 17:24
Ernie Gilman
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Good points, high.

I didn't finish by recommending the butt splices for power. Good call. And I don't find anything objectionable about an exposed RG59 splice. After asking recently if there are any good crimp splices, I concluded that the cost of them, plus the need to carry another SKU for the rare splice, made it better to just put on BNCs and connect them with a barrel. I also make a loop at the splice so there's no tension on the connectors. They're totally visible but secure.

Also, I just corrected this: I meant to say that it's hard enough to get RG59 into all the close connections on a DVR. It would be much worse with RG6; plus you'd most likely have to use an F connector, then an F to BNC splice, making the entire connection unwieldy.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 7 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 17:56
Craig Aguiar-Winter
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I have compression fit BNC connectors for both RG6 and RG59. So that's not an issue but you make a very good point about the flexibility of 59 vs 6.

The cables won't look unsightly if I splice and run separate power. The splices won't be visible and the cable will be hidden as well.

I have the butt splice connectors for the power but I usually solder and shrink those types of connections.

I came up empty from all of my usual suppliers for extension cables under 100ft. I looked at the cost of 500ft of RG59 Siamese and it's not as much as I thought but I would still have 400ft that I'll likely never use.

Well, I guess I'll have 400 ft of cable I won't use. Anybody in the Caledon area want to buy a partial roll of Siamese cable?!
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 8 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 18:46
highfigh
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On July 25, 2014 at 17:56, Craig Aguiar-Winter said...
I have compression fit BNC connectors for both RG6 and RG59. So that's not an issue but you make a very good point about the flexibility of 59 vs 6.

The cables won't look unsightly if I splice and run separate power. The splices won't be visible and the cable will be hidden as well.

I have the butt splice connectors for the power but I usually solder and shrink those types of connections.

I came up empty from all of my usual suppliers for extension cables under 100ft. I looked at the cost of 500ft of RG59 Siamese and it's not as much as I thought but I would still have 400ft that I'll likely never use.

Well, I guess I'll have 400 ft of cable I won't use. Anybody in the Caledon area want to buy a partial roll of Siamese cable?!

Rather than solder, you could look for the HeatNSeal butt splices that use low temperature solder in the ferrule as well as the glue. I used them when I worked on boats and they're good. Not cheap, but the trade-off is parts cost vs time spent soldering/wrapping/waiting. NAPA sells them and some of the electronics parts places do, too.

Boat manufacturers usually use a regular, cheap butt splice and they last for years, if not decades, without problems. It's amazing, but true. I would never use them if I was a manufacturer.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 9 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 19:54
ShaferCustoms
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Craig

I can ship you a partial spool of rg59 for shipping and beer money?

How fast do you need it?
Post 10 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 21:34
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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100 feet with BNC ends, about $50.

[Link: cablesondemand.com]

Yeah, how fast do you need this? I might have this cable in the garage and I definitely have the connectors. I'd only charge a buck a foot, no lie, no joke, no loss of profit here!
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 11 made on Saturday July 26, 2014 at 07:43
Darcon
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Craig

If it helps you, and you do not want to buy a roll of cable, I have enough RG6 Siamese wire that would work for you.

I am just north of Caledon

We have migrated to IP cameras now, and have stopped using this cable. It is sitting in the warehouse collecting dust.....
You can have right, or you can have it now, but you can't have it right now!
OP | Post 12 made on Saturday July 26, 2014 at 08:22
Craig Aguiar-Winter
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Thanks guys.
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 13 made on Saturday July 26, 2014 at 18:04
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On July 25, 2014 at 18:46, highfigh said...
Rather than solder, you could look for the HeatNSeal butt splices that use low temperature solder in the ferrule as well as the glue. I used them when I worked on boats and they're good. Not cheap, but the trade-off is parts cost vs time spent soldering/wrapping/waiting. NAPA sells them and some of the electronics parts places do, too.

Are you talking about butt splices for RG59? It sounds like you are.

Boat manufacturers usually use a regular, cheap butt splice and they last for years, if not decades, without problems. It's amazing, but true. I would never use them if I was a manufacturer.

You should look into them to see what makes them work. A properly crimped butt splice has compressed the metals to the point where there is what's called "cold flow" that results in intimate metal to metal contact with no space between. I don't think a soldered connection is any better than this! And I mean technically speaking.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 14 made on Saturday July 26, 2014 at 19:02
highfigh
Loyal Member
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Posts:
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On July 26, 2014 at 18:04, Ernie Gilman said...
Are you talking about butt splices for RG59? It sounds like you are.

You should look into them to see what makes them work. A properly crimped butt splice has compressed the metals to the point where there is what's called "cold flow" that results in intimate metal to metal contact with no space between. I don't think a soldered connection is any better than this! And I mean technically speaking.

No, butt splices for the 18/2.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 15 made on Saturday July 26, 2014 at 19:03
highfigh
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Joined:
Posts:
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On July 25, 2014 at 12:43, Craig Aguiar-Winter said...
Hello everyone.

A client I've done a lot of work for has four cameras installed (came with the house). Their cables are fed to a location beside the electrical panel and I want to extend the cables about 20ft each to a rack I installed in a utility room. The cable in question is a RG59 Siamese cable. I. In the past I would have just attached whatever coax I had on hand but I have been reading the A/V Installer's Pocket Cable Guide (maybe not the exact title) as recommended by Ernie, and if there is one thing I have leaned it's that there is way more to choosing a cable than I previously knew.

In an effort to do the best job I can, I ask what kind of cable should I extend these cameras with? I asked one of my suppliers if I can just use the RG6 cable that I have (quad shield with copper clad steel conductor) and he said no it won't work. I asked why, he said the larger center conductor in RG6 makes it incompatible. My first instinct was that's a load of crap but then I realized I actually don't know if he's wrong. He didn't give me enough of information to back up his statement though so I'm still inclined to think he has no idea what he's talking about.

Unfortunately I don't have any specs on the cameras. With out that can someone tell me what the typical cable used for this application is or can use my RG6 quad and separate power wires to make the extension? I don't plan to get into security so I don't want buy 500 or 1000 ft of cable just for this one job. But if I need to I will.

Thanks, Craig.

How much do you need? I found a chunk in my garage while I was repairing the overhead door.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
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