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Your nightmare job where you worked on someone else's work...
This thread has 26 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 27.
Post 16 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 00:26
para19
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On July 23, 2014 at 15:01, Ernie Gilman said...
Could you explain what you mean by that? "Multi wire" in particular.

Also, non-electricians need to know that "side of a panel" is NOT and NEVER a literal term. Standard American home power panels have has two phases, but they're not divided into one phase on the left and one phase on the right. Instead, as you go down the panel, the evens number connections inside the panel are one phase and the odds are the other. When we say "side," we mean "phase" regardless of which actual side the breaker is on.

Not exactly almost all panels have the following numbering for circuits...
One side of your panel (Left) will be labelled 1,3,5, etc and the other side (Right) 2,4,6.
There is always money in the banana stand...
Post 17 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 00:39
para19
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On July 23, 2014 at 14:11, King of typos said...
Meaning what exactly? If you are referring to circuit A coming from Leg A, and circuit B coming from Leg B of the utility power. Then I can understand that. Basically if the neutral would fail for whatever reason, those two devices the dishwasher and food disposal will now have 240 going to them.

If that is the case, then having the breakers on different sides of the panel doesn't make since. As they still can be on Leg A and Leg B. You'll want to have them on the same side, but a breaker for a different circuit between them. So both the dishwasher and food disposal would be on the same Leg A (or B).

I'll have to find my NEC and look that up though.

KOT

In multi branch circuit the neutral (common) carries the unbalanced load.
Remember in a single phase system the Phases are 180 out of phase.

ex.
Black wire (Phase A) = 10A
Red wire (Phase B) = 10A
Neutral = Black Wire (Phase A) Amps + Red Wire (Phase B) Amps

10A + -10A (Remember 180 out of phase) = 0A

N
ow lets say you put both wires on the same Phase...

Black wire (Phase A) 10A
Red wire (Phase A) 10A
Neutral = Black Wire (Phase A) Amps + Red Wire (Phase A) Amps

10A+ 10A (same phase now) = 20 A
And now you are damaging the neutral wire.


This is why it is so important to place the breaker legs on different Phases !!!

 
There is always money in the banana stand...
OP | Post 18 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 00:46
King of typos
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On July 23, 2014 at 15:01, Ernie Gilman said...
Could you explain what you mean by that? "Multi wire" in particular.

Also, non-electricians need to know that "side of a panel" is NOT and NEVER a literal term. Standard American home power panels have has two phases, but they're not divided into one phase on the left and one phase on the right. Instead, as you go down the panel, the evens number connections inside the panel are one phase and the odds are the other. When we say "side," we mean "phase" regardless of which actual side the breaker is on.

On July 24, 2014 at 00:26, para19 said...
Not exactly almost all panels have the following numbering for circuits...
One side of your panel (Left) will be labelled 1,3,5, etc and the other side (Right) 2,4,6.

para19, you are correct that even will be on one physical side, and odd on the other. But what Ernie is talking about is "phase side" or phase leg. I don't think there's a code for which physical side the even/odd has to be labeled. But there is a code stating that it has to be labeled. And labeled in such a way that it's not specific to the family who's living in the house. Example can't say "Ernie's bedroom".

But the way that an electrical panel is built, is that breaker one is on phase A, breaker two is on phase B, breaker three phase A and so on. This is so that a the house load can easily be evenly distributed and most importantly easily mount a load that uses both legs to make 240(or there a bouts), like the oven/stove and drier.

Ernie, I guess the term side must be associated with where you live. As the folks my way calls them legs. Pancakes, flat cakes, hot cakes... are all the same.

KOT
Post 19 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 01:08
para19
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On July 24, 2014 at 00:46, King of typos said...
para19, you are correct that even will be on one physical side, and odd on the other. But what Ernie is talking about is "phase side" or phase leg. I don't think there's a code for which physical side the even/odd has to be labeled. But there is a code stating that it has to be labeled. And labeled in such a way that it's not specific to the family who's living in the house. Example can't say "Ernie's bedroom".

But the way that an electrical panel is built, is that breaker one is on phase A, breaker two is on phase B, breaker three phase A and so on. This is so that a the house load can easily be evenly distributed and most importantly easily mount a load that uses both legs to make 240(or there a bouts), like the oven/stove and drier.

Ernie, I guess the term side must be associated with where you live. As the folks my way calls them legs. Pancakes, flat cakes, hot cakes... are all the same.

KOT

King of Typos what is going on here is just a mix up of how to describe circuit labelling and phase labelling.
Panels will come with a diagram of the Phasing layout somewhere on the panel or with it.

Note: Not all manufactures follow that breaker 1 phase A breaker 2 phase B layout. Schneider stab-lok panels up here in Canada used to double up the phases on each side

Ex. breaker 1 and 2 Phase A
breaker 3 and 4 Phase B
There is always money in the banana stand...
Post 20 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 01:18
Ernie Gilman
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Ya know, I wrote "American" because I knew somehow, somewhere, someone in Canada would be involved in this!

You're right about odd numbers being on the left and evens on the right. I had forgotten that. I'm in an apartment now with a tiny panel with some breakers across the top, some across the bottom, and tiny particles of overspray all over the whole thing so it's often a guess. Only the water heater is obvious with its 220V breaker.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 21 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 01:25
para19
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Happens all the time. You can confirm with a multimeter set to AC Voltage.
0V = Same Phases
240V = Different Phases
There is always money in the banana stand...
Post 22 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 07:04
vwpower44
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The number two cause for house fires in our area is a loose neutral in the middle of a circuit. The only reason I know is because it was my house that almost burnt down and the firemen found the problem before it started a fire. After the loose Neutral I had my TV, Receiver, cable box, 4-cans lights, and ceiling fan. Smoke alarm went off, and I called the fire dept. They found it with an camera that finds heat after being here for about 5 minutes.

 photo 75053_10200557576168383_1092616575_n.jpg
Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish...
Post 23 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 08:44
Mario
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On July 23, 2014 at 16:19, Craig Aguiar-Winter said...
It would seem like a good idea, if you have two separate circuits (no common neutral) in the same box, to have a two pole breaker. Otherwise you could in theory turn off one breaker, check the receptacle which would be dead, and then reach in to try to do work only to shock the crap out of yourself because the other one is live. I'm surprised it's not a code requirement to have all accessible wires in a box on the same circuit, be bridged, or in the very least labeled as such.

Craig

Craig, good reasoning and explanation and it is part of NEC code.

Section 210.4 of the NEC addresses multi-wire branch circuits, noting that these circuits are those where all conductors originate from the same panelboard or similar distribution equipment.
An approved handle tie applied to two single-pole breakers for such applications as shared neutral installations ensures the installation meets the requirement of section 210.4(B), “Disconnecting Means,” of NEC 2011 which states:
(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multi-wire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.”
Post 24 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 09:35
MN Installer
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In these pictures, it should be noted that it is against code to use the device as the splice point as well.

All the pass through wires should be spliced with a wirenut and a pigtail brought out to the device so the device only handles the load that is plugged into it, instead of all the load on the circuit downstream from that location.
Post 25 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 16:34
SWOInstaller
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|Section 210.4 of the NEC addresses multi-wire branch circuits, noting that these circuits are those where all conductors originate from the same panelboard or similar distribution equipment.
An approved handle tie applied to two single-pole breakers for such applications as shared neutral installations ensures the installation meets the requirement of section 210.4(B), “Disconnecting Means,” of NEC 2011 which states:
“(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multi-wire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.”

This explains my previous statement where if you had two separate 14/2 circuits from the main panel they don't require the single pole breakers to be tied together. These circuits are not sharing a neutral therefore are not considered a multi-wire circuit.
You can't fix stupid
Post 26 made on Thursday July 24, 2014 at 18:24
Trunk-Slammer -Supreme
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My turn to jump into the pot....


There is nothing wrong with extending a 15amp circuit that's wired with 14-2, using 12-2.

It does pass code.



A 15amp circuit in the kitchen may have been legal back when the house was built, but I believe a Kitchen must be on a 20 amp GFCI protected circuit these days.


Different time, different code.
Post 27 made on Friday July 25, 2014 at 02:51
Ernie Gilman
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On July 24, 2014 at 16:34, SWOInstaller said...
This explains my previous statement where if you had two separate 14/2 circuits from the main panel they don't require the single pole breakers to be tied together. These circuits are not sharing a neutral therefore are not considered a multi-wire circuit.

Read your definition here again, then consider the 220 volt outlet. That outlet connects to two breakers and the breakers do not share a neutral. In fact, neither breakers' output has a neutral associated with it.

The two breakers for a 220 Volt circuit must be mechanically tied together so that if the circuit trips, both phases are disconnected from the load. Without being tied together, one could trip leaving the entire circuit live at 120 volt above ground. The device won't work but you could get a shock.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
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