I might now be a custom installer like y'all. But I do some electrical work, not yet an apprentice. But at least I know the very basics.

My house was built in 1979. I understand that the NEC was different back then. Like now at least two circuits are required in the kitchen for the counter. Which I believe the 4 that are on the counter space are all on one and is tied into the bathroom's outlet and light. (Again, the NEC back then might of allowed it. And seeing how it's 2014 and my state is still using 2008 NEC...)

It would also appear that the wires goes to the bathroom outlet first, then to the kitchen. Ok, great. But the problem is, 14awg comes into that outlet and then 12awg leaves that outlet... Tisk, tisk.

I installed a second outlet in the bathroom. Used a 2-gang old work box. Since I was there, I replaced the normal outlet and used a GFCI. Now the bathroom and kitchen are GFCI. Except for the single 20amp outlet that is on the island. The island is large enough, by 2008's NEC to have more than 1 outlet. But as you know, I legally don't have to add more as the house is up to code at the time of the build.

Anyways... this is what shocked the heck out of me when I did the job today.



Note, that is the "neutral" side that is missing the center tab. And yes, they actually used one of the wires as a jumper. It's one continuos wire from one screw to the other. I see that, that wire was in a different spot. So I don't know when it was redone. But as far as I know, neither my parents did that or myself. We are the second owners.

I'm not even licensed, but I at least know not to do this.

Oh, and here's the stud, jack stud and most likely the king stud under my kitchen sink on an outside wall. Now I know why my kitchen window is sagging on the left side...


KOT

That outlet might have been "harvested" from an earlier project that some electrician had, where they removed the bridge so they could make an outlet that was live on top and switched on bottom. This is a surprise but there's nothing wrong with it as long as the screws are tight.

As for the 12 ga coming out, this is a bad idea that will probably result in no problem at all. Wire gauge signals current capability to the electrician, and if he sees 12 he's likely to think he can load it up more than is right.

I did some overseas work where I discovered that you are not allowed to use oversize wire out of a breaker -- the wire size TELLS the electrician what the breaker rating is.

I would agree with you. But in order to do a switched outlet, where half is on and the other is switched. It has to be the hot side, only the hot wire can be switched.

Now, the electrician could of been making an outlet where the top half came from breaker A and the bottom half came from breaker B. If I remember correctly, the NEC states that in order to do separate breakers on the same outlet, two neutrals has to be used. Though I could be wrong about that.

A perfect case to do this. A dishwasher and food disposal. Each must have its own 20amp circuit. Legally you can split the outlet in half. Top for the dishwasher and bottom for the disposal. But again, idk if they could use the same neutral wire.

I wonder how those over seas places ran wire over great distances? For instance my panel is at one end and the rooms on the upper level and other end have 12awg going to them. Due to voltage drop. Every other room are 14, except where required to have 12.

KOT

Not necessarily true. That depends on what kind of cable feeds the box will determine what type of breaker is used. If you are using a 12/3 there is only one neutral wire so here you must use a 2 pole 20A breaker and remove the hot jumper. If 2- 12/2 wires are feeding the box then you need to have 2 single pole 20A breakers and remove both jumpers on the receptacle


With what has been completed at your house, unless they are two separate circuits feeding that receptacle the neutral is completed properly and would pass inspection.

As per the switch from 14 to 12awg, usually you start with the higher gauge wire from the panel and go lower not the other way around, but still not a problem providing. You know that it is being fed by a 14awg wire so you can only place 15A breaker on the circuit. I just completed this the other day where I ran 12awg from the panel then broke out from there using 14awg wire. A 15A breaker had to be installed due to the 14awg wire.

I would have concerns with that double tap on the lower screw. It does not look like a continuous loop and the one wire appears to be barely held by the lower screw. If it was me I would pigtail and eliminate the double tap lower neutral screw since inspectors here would not pass it

I just removed that outlet completely. Installed a GFCI and a second outlet. From the LOAD of the GFCI, the wires goes to the second outlet. Then from there to the rest of the circuit (the kitchen).

There's nothing I can do with the 14 coming in and 12 going out at this time though.

KOT

You wouldn't want to use 2 separate breakers.
If you're feeding single device/appliance from two breakers, both breakers must be bridged.
Ideally, you would use a double pole breaker.

Alternatively, you could use handle ties



 

This is providing you are sharing a neutral. If not sharing a neutral a 2 pole breaker is not required.

Yes, that's the perfect example. And it probably is not legal to use one neutral of the same size as the feed wire for two dedicated circuits. A larger neutral, yes, but that could not occur with Romex.


What I have seen there is that no wire is run over great distances from the breaker panel. One function of a breaker panel is to have local control, and making the panel not actually local defeats that purpose. (One must take into account, though, that this house is a physical outrage at about 300,000 sq ft or so including staff housing and power plant and yes, cafeteria and catering kitchen, and that the owner is a construction company exec and thus hires very pro electricians.)


I see exactly what you're describing, but I'd bet that the other rooms are 14 not because of voltage drop (because 14 would only make voltage drop worse) but because they're feeding branch locations not intended to draw the entire current available from the breaker.

And it probably is not legal to use one neutral of the same size as the feed wire for two dedicated circuits.

It is within code.. 120v common wire and multi wire branch circuits allow the sharing of neutral, but must not share a hot from the same side of the panel

Meaning what exactly? If you are referring to circuit A coming from Leg A, and circuit B coming from Leg B of the utility power. Then I can understand that. Basically if the neutral would fail for whatever reason, those two devices the dishwasher and food disposal will now have 240 going to them.

If that is the case, then having the breakers on different sides of the panel doesn't make since. As they still can be on Leg A and Leg B. You'll want to have them on the same side, but a breaker for a different circuit between them. So both the dishwasher and food disposal would be on the same Leg A (or B).

I'll have to find my NEC and look that up though.

KOT

In a proper multi wire circuit (each hot being from a different side/leg of the panel) the current load on the neutral is the difference between the two hots. If you were to use hot from the same 120V leg the current load is added, depending on wire size and devices on the circuit, an improper multi-branch circuit could overload the neutral.

And yes as you said, dropping the neutral on a properly wired multi-branch will give you some other problems, but not necessarily 240V.

[Link: ecmweb.com]

There are risks in either situation.

Could you explain what you mean by that? "Multi wire" in particular.

Also, non-electricians need to know that "side of a panel" is NOT and NEVER a literal term. Standard American home power panels have has two phases, but they're not divided into one phase on the left and one phase on the right. Instead, as you go down the panel, the evens number connections inside the panel are one phase and the odds are the other. When we say "side," we mean "phase" regardless of which actual side the breaker is on.

Multi-wire branch circuit

layman's terms

Two or more ungrounded conductors that share a neutral

Nec definition.
"Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system."

It would seem like a good idea, if you have two separate circuits (no common neutral) in the same box, to have a two pole breaker. Otherwise you could in theory turn off one breaker, check the receptacle which would be dead, and then reach in to try to do work only to shock the crap out of yourself because the other one is live. I'm surprised it's not a code requirement to have all accessible wires in a box on the same circuit, be bridged, or in the very least labeled as such.

Craig