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OT- Article Comparing Tesla & Tucker From 2008 - They were really wrong
This thread has 147 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 45.
OP | Post 31 made on Thursday July 17, 2014 at 19:42
Mac Burks (39)
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The game is over. The next 2 decades will be the death of gas guzzling machines of yesteryear. Only a few of us will have them in the garage. We will pull them out to drive around on a nice day before returning them to the back of the garage under their tarp.
Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 32 made on Thursday July 17, 2014 at 20:00
Fins
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On July 17, 2014 at 16:05, Mr. Stanley said...
Hmmm I guess that is why they got the highest rating for a car ever by Consumer Reports, calling them a nearly perfect car, and a rating of 99 out of 100?

How long have you been in this industry? And you still believe anything that Consumer Reports prints? They may not sell ads, but manufacturers "sponsor" their studies.
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 33 made on Thursday July 17, 2014 at 20:18
Mr. Stanley
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On July 17, 2014 at 20:00, Fins said...
How long have you been in this industry? And you still believe anything that Consumer Reports prints?

They are off target a lot in the AV world, but the Tesla review was pretty impressive, as were some other reviews from Car magazines, internet and other articles as well as testimonials from friends and clients.

Are you one of those anti electric car guys?

DO you "Roll Coal"?
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 34 made on Thursday July 17, 2014 at 20:20
Mr. Stanley
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The Super Charger stations around here are....free. Imagine that?!
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 35 made on Thursday July 17, 2014 at 21:58
Fins
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On July 17, 2014 at 20:18, Mr. Stanley said...
They are off target a lot in the AV world, but the Tesla review was pretty impressive, as were some other reviews from Car magazines, internet and other articles as well as testimonials from friends and clients.

Are you one of those anti electric car guys?

DO you "Roll Coal"?

So you think they miss AV, but oh, on cars they are honest. Come on man, be logical. I'm not saying this as a knock on Tesla. I'm saying it as a knock on consumer reports.
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 36 made on Friday July 18, 2014 at 17:41
RTI Installer
Super Member
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On July 17, 2014 at 19:42, Mac Burks (39) said...
The game is over. The next 2 decades will be the death of gas guzzling machines of yesteryear. Only a few of us will have them in the garage. We will pull them out to drive around on a nice day before returning them to the back of the garage under their tarp.

I only agree in so much as I believe the whole system is unsustainable and therefore will without a doubt cave in on its self.

I beleive that most electric cars of the future will be home brewed, built out of existing gas mobiles becuse there wont be any functional infrastructure to supply parts for EV vehicles.

I also believe there will be a resurgence in steam powered vehicles, built out of old cars and trucks. [Link: extremetech.com]

As Stan said there are a lot of Tesla's around here and everyone I talk too loves them, I even have a customer who crashed one of the sports cars and he still loves it.
 
Never Ignore the Obvious -- H. David Gray
Post 37 made on Friday July 18, 2014 at 17:52
Mr. Stanley
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On July 18, 2014 at 17:41, RTI Installer said...
I only agree in so much as I believe the whole system is unsustainable and therefore will without a doubt cave in on its self.

I beleive that most electric cars of the future will be home brewed, built out of existing gas mobiles becuse there wont be any functional infrastructure to supply parts for EV vehicles.

I also believe there will be a resurgence in steam powered vehicles, built out of old cars and trucks. [Link: extremetech.com]

As Stan said there are a lot of Tesla's around here and everyone I talk too loves them, I even have a customer who crashed one of the sports cars and he still loves it.

When they come out with the $35,000 model, and they begin exporting them they will be hugely successful.

Will gas cars go away? Not for a hell of a long time. By then we will be living in cities with extensive public transit.

The prices for QUALITY electrics will continue to go down... but the gassers will be around for a long time.

Weird deal, there are tons and tons of new apartments and condos going up EVERYWHERE around here, and surprizingly, many of them have no parking---but they do have rooms to store your bike!!! Cars? Why the hell do ya need a car?

Solar panel technology will improve (there is already a new one that is like 20,000 times more sensitive being tested) ---- Germany will not let you builld a new home unless it is solar... So, this could take some of the strain off of the grid someday. Not toally solar dependent, but a big help.
 
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 38 made on Saturday July 19, 2014 at 02:24
RTI Installer
Super Member
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On July 18, 2014 at 17:52, Mr. Stanley said...
When they come out with the $35,000 model, and they begin exporting them they will be hugely successful.

Will gas cars go away? Not for a hell of a long time. By then we will be living in cities with extensive public transit.

The prices for QUALITY electrics will continue to go down... but the gassers will be around for a long time.

Weird deal, there are tons and tons of new apartments and condos going up EVERYWHERE around here, and surprizingly, many of them have no parking---but they do have rooms to store your bike!!! Cars? Why the hell do ya need a car?

Solar panel technology will improve (there is already a new one that is like 20,000 times more sensitive being tested) ---- Germany will not let you builld a new home unless it is solar... So, this could take some of the strain off of the grid someday. Not toally solar dependent, but a big help.

Yeah but you still need vast amounts of OIL to build electric cars, mass transit vehicles and even bicycles
 
Never Ignore the Obvious -- H. David Gray
Post 39 made on Saturday July 19, 2014 at 10:33
Anthony
Ultimate Member
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28,867
On July 7, 2014 at 01:26, RTI Installer said...
Yes but you have to really think about this carefully.

agree, but there lies the problem. Let me go a different route. Let's say there is a cake, if it is a cupcake or a small cake and you are hungry for something sweet maybe you can eat the whole cake. But if it is too much (or there are other people) you might only want a piece. Now when that happens, what makes more sense, to cut a vertical slice and have some of all the layers or horizontally and have a piece that is only the icing on the top of the cake? In real life (like the cake a subject might be too big and so someone decides to tackle a single discussion (like Fin asking what would happen to the grid if we all drove electric vehicles) but it does not make sense to just broadly look at an aspect ( or more)

For example you said

Another unintended consequence  to consider is that the oil companies will simply sell more crude to china and other emerging industrialized nations that are not totally on the electric bandwagon yet, with the same result, leaving the USA with less crude to refine.

but does it make sense? on the surface when you don't really think about it, maybe but

1) here is an article from 2010. Shell decided to shut down the refining part of their largest refinery in Canada and transform the location into a distribution terminal. Instead of bringing in crude they are bringing in large quantities of gas and propane and...... everything that crude would have made from around the world and distributing it from there. It is wrong to assume that oil needs to be refined locally. If it makes sense we could be driving electric cars and the oil refined here and the gas shipped elsewhere or we can be driving gas guzzlers and the oil refined elsewhere and the gas shipped here.

2) You assume China and the developing world is backwards, and in some ways it is, but when it comes to electric transportation (namely because of stuff like the high speed trains that are heavily used) China is way ahead of the US. When it comes to adding infrastructure when there is little or nothing there and something is needed it is easy to make the decision to look at the future instead of the past, on the other hand deciding to get rid of what works to make it better at large costs is much harder.

3) you look at that chart (with the breakdown of things derived from oil) and you see it as fixed when it is not. The oil and the refining process will determine the % of each thing. So if gas fro cars is less needed that slice could be made smaller and get more of the other stuff that are needed

3) you are assuming that gas=transportation and that is not accurate. Some of it goes to home use (like my lawn mower and back up generator), industrial use and even electricity production (in the US that accounts for roughly 1% of gas use and 1% of electricity made). So it is a lot more complicated than a simple we drive electric cars and so we need less gas. Like I pointed out in previous posts I am assuming that if gas prices fall due to electric vehicles it will make sense for there to be more gas powered electric generation plants

4) you see transportation as cars but it it is not that simple. I have a friend that has a cottage (cabin....) near a lake, he has a boat on the communal dock for those 6 or 8 properties, would it make sense for him to have an electric boat and bring a wire from his home through the two neighbours to the dock? It might make sense for the guy that drives 50 miles to work and back to have an electric car that can do 300 miles on a charge but how about the traveling sales man or the long haul driver?

5) let's assume you are right and electric cars mean a lot less gas and that means refineries scaling down, electric cars also mean more electricity and that means power plants scaling up. I don't know how the two will match up but it is not as simple as the example I gave above with the Montreal refinery which went from ~500 people to ~ 30 people.

I could do the same with everything else you said Your analysis of the situation appears to be "things will change, that means some stuff will disappear (or become less important)" and that is bad. But you miss that change is not A is gone but A becomes B. Without the B part (what it will replace what disappears) the analysis is missing the most important part
...
Post 40 made on Saturday July 19, 2014 at 10:36
Anthony
Ultimate Member
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28,867
On July 17, 2014 at 20:00, Fins said...
How long have you been in this industry? And you still believe anything that Consumer Reports prints? They may not sell ads, but manufacturers "sponsor" their studies.

I don't think anyone sponsors their study. My issue with CR is that their studies are done by J6P, the guy that will test the Av equipment (for instance) does not need to know anything about the subject and he will be testing fridges the next day and cars the day after.
...
Post 41 made on Saturday July 19, 2014 at 13:32
Mr. Stanley
Elite Member
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16,954
On July 19, 2014 at 02:24, RTI Installer said...
Yeah but you still need vast amounts of OIL to build electric cars, mass transit vehicles and even bicycles
 

Sure, so why not build electric cars that don't consume vast amounts of oil?
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 42 made on Saturday July 19, 2014 at 13:37
Mr. Stanley
Elite Member
Joined:
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On July 19, 2014 at 10:36, Anthony said...
I don't think anyone sponsors their study. My issue with CR is that their studies are done by J6P, the guy that will test the Av equipment (for instance) does not need to know anything about the subject and he will be testing fridges the next day and cars the day after.

+1


Reviewing automobiles is quite abit different from reviewing electronics and speakers. Reviewing these things aside from mesurements, are largely subjective--- these reviewers are not audiophiles. But reviewing cars is a totally different animal (imo).
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 43 made on Sunday July 20, 2014 at 02:36
RTI Installer
Super Member
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Posts:
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3,320
On July 19, 2014 at 13:32, Mr. Stanley said...
Sure, so why not build electric cars that don't consume vast amounts of oil?

Agreed but how do you do that? what do you you use in place of petrolium based products?
 
Never Ignore the Obvious -- H. David Gray
Post 44 made on Sunday July 20, 2014 at 03:00
RTI Installer
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
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On July 19, 2014 at 10:33, Anthony said...
agree, but there lies the problem. Let me go a different route. Let's say there is a cake, if it is a cupcake or a small cake and you are hungry for something sweet maybe you can eat the whole cake. But if it is too much (or there are other people) you might only want a piece. Now when that happens, what makes more sense, to cut a vertical slice and have some of all the layers or horizontally and have a piece that is only the icing on the top of the cake? In real life (like the cake a subject might be too big and so someone decides to tackle a single discussion (like Fin asking what would happen to the grid if we all drove electric vehicles) but it does not make sense to just broadly look at an aspect ( or more)

For example you said



but does it make sense? on the surface when you don't really think about it, maybe but

1) here is an article from 2010. Shell decided to shut down the refining part of their largest refinery in Canada and transform the location into a distribution terminal. Instead of bringing in crude they are bringing in large quantities of gas and propane and...... everything that crude would have made from around the world and distributing it from there. It is wrong to assume that oil needs to be refined locally. If it makes sense we could be driving electric cars and the oil refined here and the gas shipped elsewhere or we can be driving gas guzzlers and the oil refined elsewhere and the gas shipped here.

2) You assume China and the developing world is backwards, and in some ways it is, but when it comes to electric transportation (namely because of stuff like the high speed trains that are heavily used) China is way ahead of the US. When it comes to adding infrastructure when there is little or nothing there and something is needed it is easy to make the decision to look at the future instead of the past, on the other hand deciding to get rid of what works to make it better at large costs is much harder.

3) you look at that chart (with the breakdown of things derived from oil) and you see it as fixed when it is not. The oil and the refining process will determine the % of each thing. So if gas fro cars is less needed that slice could be made smaller and get more of the other stuff that are needed

3) you are assuming that gas=transportation and that is not accurate. Some of it goes to home use (like my lawn mower and back up generator), industrial use and even electricity production (in the US that accounts for roughly 1% of gas use and 1% of electricity made). So it is a lot more complicated than a simple we drive electric cars and so we need less gas. Like I pointed out in previous posts I am assuming that if gas prices fall due to electric vehicles it will make sense for there to be more gas powered electric generation plants

4) you see transportation as cars but it it is not that simple. I have a friend that has a cottage (cabin....) near a lake, he has a boat on the communal dock for those 6 or 8 properties, would it make sense for him to have an electric boat and bring a wire from his home through the two neighbours to the dock? It might make sense for the guy that drives 50 miles to work and back to have an electric car that can do 300 miles on a charge but how about the traveling sales man or the long haul driver?

5) let's assume you are right and electric cars mean a lot less gas and that means refineries scaling down, electric cars also mean more electricity and that means power plants scaling up. I don't know how the two will match up but it is not as simple as the example I gave above with the Montreal refinery which went from ~500 people to ~ 30 people.

I could do the same with everything else you said Your analysis of the situation appears to be "things will change, that means some stuff will disappear (or become less important)" and that is bad. But you miss that change is not A is gone but A becomes B. Without the B part (what it will replace what disappears) the analysis is missing the most important part

You are right, there is no clear cut line that divides this topic. But i stand on a single note and that is profits. The whole petroleum based system evolved to be what it is, and all of industry has become dependent on the system as it is. It is true that huge amounts of Gasoline in the form of jet fuel is used by Aviation, Gasoline is also widely used in non diesel boats, and vehicles that are simply two large to run on electricity such as RV's. And as you said there are those products that will only run on gasoline simply because there is no viable alternative. So Gasoline is not going away anytime soon, but that is not what i am talking about. what I am pointing at is the economics of this process. If you take huge numbers of automobiles out of the equation, the oil industry will have an economic deficit. They just cant stop refining the same amount of gasoline as it is in direct proportion to all the other products that are refined at the same time, as that is the most economical way to produce all the stuff that comes from oil, so you will have a gasoline surplus. You can say well then they can burn that surplus in a plant to power electrical generators, but frankly that is not practicle or safe. Gasoline is an explosive fuel, not a slow burn fuel as would be used to heat boilers, further it would be way to costly to use gasoline as a fuel anyway. can you imagine any power plant that could afford to pay even $2.50 a gallon for fuel, when they can get natural gas at a much lower rate.  [Link: science.howstuffworks.com]
Never Ignore the Obvious -- H. David Gray
Post 45 made on Sunday July 20, 2014 at 16:49
Anthony
Ultimate Member
Joined:
Posts:
May 2001
28,867
On July 19, 2014 at 13:37, Mr. Stanley said...
+1

Reviewing automobiles is quite abit different from reviewing electronics and speakers. Reviewing these things aside from mesurements, are largely subjective--- these reviewers are not audiophiles. But reviewing cars is a totally different animal (imo).

yes and no. I agree that how many MPG or how long a car takes to go from 0 to 60 is mostly objective as well as many of the other metrics. But in the end for them to get a score of X and pick a top there is some subjectivity that enters the equation and it might not match a particular persons need (for example if someone is an NBA player or a sumo wrestler fitting in the car can be very high on the list, while for CR if the 5'5" 150lb tester found it comfortable with lots of legroom it does not mean much. Also I agree that the room, source and the drive element will all play a large role in what one hears from speakers.

I don't care what they review for me it makes sense to take a brief look (there might be good info) but you don't make a buying decision on it.
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