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Topic:
Projector screen with fire underneath.
This thread has 17 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Thursday February 20, 2014 at 18:47
cmo
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Ok ideas please - We have a projector screen coming down
and the interior designer has decided to plant an electric fire - live flame directly below it!
There doesn't appear to be any contact closures or similar on the fire unit, only mains and IR remote.

What I'd like to do is send some sort of signal back to the Crestron processor which will de-activate the projector screen and stopping it from coming down - maybe a temperature sensor near the fire or something similar - worst case scenario we generate a message on the touchpanel warning if the fire is on? although I'd rather have something fail safe.

All ideas greatly appreciated,

Thanks,

Chris.
Post 2 made on Thursday February 20, 2014 at 19:09
Audiophiliac
Super Member
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Liability waiver #1. :)
"When I eat, it is the food that is scared." - Ron Swanson
Post 3 made on Thursday February 20, 2014 at 19:50
highfigh
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On February 20, 2014 at 18:47, cmo said...
Ok ideas please - We have a projector screen coming down
and the interior designer has decided to plant an electric fire - live flame directly below it!
There doesn't appear to be any contact closures or similar on the fire unit, only mains and IR remote.

What I'd like to do is send some sort of signal back to the Crestron processor which will de-activate the projector screen and stopping it from coming down - maybe a temperature sensor near the fire or something similar - worst case scenario we generate a message on the touchpanel warning if the fire is on? although I'd rather have something fail safe.

All ideas greatly appreciated,

Thanks,

Chris.

Why not create a macro that provides for interlocking either, in the event that the other is in use? A thermal sensor would work and they're cheap.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 4 made on Thursday February 20, 2014 at 20:43
David Haddad
Long Time Member
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On February 20, 2014 at 18:47, cmo said...
Ok ideas please - We have a projector screen coming down
and the interior designer has decided to plant an electric fire - live flame directly below it!
There doesn't appear to be any contact closures or similar on the fire unit, only mains and IR remote.

What I'd like to do is send some sort of signal back to the Crestron processor which will de-activate the projector screen and stopping it from coming down - maybe a temperature sensor near the fire or something similar - worst case scenario we generate a message on the touchpanel warning if the fire is on? although I'd rather have something fail safe.

All ideas greatly appreciated,

Thanks,

Chris.

My idea is:
1. Don't put a screen there.
OR
2. Don't put a fire there.
Post 5 made on Thursday February 20, 2014 at 21:22
Trunk-Slammer -Supreme
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"Man, those flames from the cars on fire look so real!"....
Post 6 made on Thursday February 20, 2014 at 22:44
Dave in Balto
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Make sure the screen is Stewart, so you can easily get replacement screen material.

If the fire is IR, how about the fireplace turns off when the screen drops.
Hey, careful man, there's a beverage here!

The Dude
Post 7 made on Thursday February 20, 2014 at 23:30
Audiophiliac
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Sounds like you could rig together the right combo of relays to create a failsafe. Kustom it.
"When I eat, it is the food that is scared." - Ron Swanson
Post 8 made on Friday February 21, 2014 at 00:13
David Haddad
Long Time Member
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Here are the things you need to consider.

1. If there is a fire potential here NOTHING you do can free you from liability if you knowingly install a screen that when in the down position could catch on fire.

2. So the question is, do you really want to be in the business of trying to make your automation system prevent a fire because the Client/designer is choosing to do something dangerous and you want to please them or make a sale, versus saying "I'm sorry, this is dangerous, if you are going to put a fireplace here, a screen cannot be put here".

3. In some ways you are INCREASING your liability by trying to design a fail safe. Now it is YOUR FAULT if something goes wrong. You'd need to consult an attorney but in some ways you might be much better off telling the customer this is unsafe, I'll install the screen based on the understanding that you don't ever actually use your fireplace.

4. A liability waiver does not stop you from being held liable if you do something negligent. Think about it this way. If I ask an electrician to install an outlet on the wall above my tub so I can plug my razor in when I'm in the tub, and promise I'll never use it when water is in the tub, which seems the correct path?

a. The electrician tells me that's against code, is unsafe, and he can't do it.
b. The electrician does it, and tries to figure out how to put a sensor in the sub to detect water and make sure power to the outlet gets killed if I'm in the tub, so I don't get killed.

If he does b, what do you think is going to happen to him if his water sensor doesn't work?

The purpose of home automation systems is to increase ease of use and enhance safety. NOT fix dangerous systems/stupid decisions by the Client or interior designer.

[Link: controlworks.com]

Last edited by David Haddad on February 21, 2014 02:25.
Post 9 made on Friday February 21, 2014 at 03:07
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On February 21, 2014 at 00:13, David Haddad said...
Here are the things you need to consider.

4. A liability waiver does not stop you from being held liable if you do something negligent.

A liability waiver does not stop you from being sued, which is a bit different from being held liable but can still bankrupt you, if THE CLIENT does something negligent.

Think about it this way. If I ask an electrician to install an outlet on the wall above my tub so I can plug my razor in when I'm in the tub, and promise I'll never use it when water is in the tub, which seems the correct path?

a. The electrician tells me that's against code, is unsafe, and he can't do it.
b. The electrician does it, and tries to figure out how to put a sensor in the sub to detect water and make sure power to the outlet gets killed if I'm in the tub, so I don't get killed.

Those are called GFCIs. Have electricians' liabilities increased since those became standard?

People! Haven't we seen pictures of living room after living room with paintings above the mantle? Do you suppose hundreds of years of decorating like that has continued despite repeated fires?

I think you have not measured the temperature above a mantle, nor felt the stones above a mantle, that are cool to the touch when there's a roaring fire. The temperature will be dangerous if a fire in the fireplace is so huge that the flames are leaping several feet into the air, but only then.

See [Link: google.com]
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 10 made on Friday February 21, 2014 at 07:56
Stryker
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So are we assuming from the info in the original post that there is a mantle? How far above the electric fire will the bottom of "screen coming down" be?
"If they give you ruled paper, write the other way"
Post 11 made on Friday February 21, 2014 at 08:22
SWOInstaller
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I am confused as I am almost certain an electric fireplace only producing heat with the flame as an image to look real?

Now if this fireplace was fueled by a form of gas (LP/NG) this is where you have a physical flame in which you have to be certain not to come in contact with your screen, but an electric fireplace is only producing heat, no flame.
You can't fix stupid
OP | Post 12 made on Friday February 21, 2014 at 10:19
cmo
Founding Member
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295
Yes its a gas with a physical flame, it doesn't touch the screen when down but is underneath it.

Thanks for all the above suggestions - This is something that has been added to the original design without us being notified.

However we have seen the fire on-site and therefore have to at least warn the client of the dangers.
As above I really don't want to integrate with something dangerous, the liability should be down to them.

Thanks,

Chris.
Post 13 made on Friday February 21, 2014 at 10:30
TimmyS
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235
The heat from the flame may also cause the screen to wave around as well if they are watching "tv" while the fireplace is on!

Potentially the heat will also shorten the life of the screen and may cause it to stick to itself on the roller and fail.
www.SorrentinoDesignGroup.com

Under Construction....
Post 14 made on Friday February 21, 2014 at 11:05
David Haddad
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On February 21, 2014 at 03:07, Ernie Gilman said...
A liability waiver does not stop you from being sued, which is a bit different from being held liable but can still bankrupt you, if THE CLIENT does something negligent.

Those are called GFCIs. Have electricians' liabilities increased since those became standard?

Ernie, a GFCI still cannot be placed right at the edge of a tub, hence my analogy. And in the instance where code allows the use of a GFCI, the critical difference is that it's manufactured by a company in the business of manufacturing them, insured to do so, and going through a safety approval process such as UL.

Not by an electrician trying to build a life safety device himself as a one-off project on a job.

People! Haven't we seen pictures of living room after living room with paintings above the mantle? Do you suppose hundreds of years of decorating like that has continued despite repeated fires?

Ernie, I was going by what he said, you appear to be going by what you imagine he said :p.

On February 20, 2014 at 18:47, cmo said...
the interior designer has decided to plant an electric fire - live flame directly below it!

I took him at his word, as he didn't saw "I've got a screen coming down above the mantle of a fireplace. Also, I don't know what this has to do with a television that gets placed *above* the mantle, a screen typically comes down well past a mantle. Finally I then said this, notice the word "if" as a qualifier (emphasis mine).

On February 21, 2014 at 00:13, David Haddad said...

1. **If** there is a fire potential here NOTHING you do can free you from liability if you knowingly install a screen that when in the down position could catch on fire.

Last edited by David Haddad on February 21, 2014 11:13.
Post 15 made on Friday February 21, 2014 at 11:10
David Haddad
Long Time Member
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On February 21, 2014 at 07:56, Stryker said...
So are we assuming from the info in the original post that there is a mantle? How far above the electric fire will the bottom of "screen coming down" be?

On February 21, 2014 at 08:22, SWOInstaller said...
I am confused as I am almost certain an electric fireplace only producing heat with the flame as an image to look real?

I wasn't clear on those things either so I just went by his wording of "live flame directly below it".
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