So we have a customer that absolutely insisted having a receiver for surround sound and wanted a $50 garage sale amp for his record player. Now when I say record player, I mean the modern ones with an RCA out....

We decided to put in a speaker override that would allow us to use the L/R speakers for both systems. It frankly worked well but the customer ran into some user error issues which we had instructed not to do on multiple occasions. So I finally fired off an email saying that garage sale amp is going away, period. It will fix all of their "problems" and we won't have to take a phone call every 6 months.

The problem: The Yamaha RX-A730 does not sound as good as the old 2 channel amp (not sure of age/brand/model as I didn't install it). I understand that's to be expected but I want to find a compromise. So I feel like I have some options:
1. Upgrade the Yamaha 730 to a 1030. I don't think this will yield a happier customer.
2. Switch to Marantz
3. Add a 5 channel amp

My preference is listed above based on ease of change and having the conversation with a completely rude insulting customer. I would reverse the order in a perfect world. Any advice would be appreciated.

Drew does the 730 or 1030 have a pre out for the front channels? Can you add his or a better two channel amp to the system to give him his stereo needs. You can just adjust the settings for audio by input and keep the phono stage on stereo.

Looks like you have to step up to at least the 1030.

Stepping up will not help. You need a nice warm external amp

I meant to get the pre outs for the amp.

What king of user errors. Maybe there's a better way to switch between the two if we knew how it was hooked up (what kind of speaker override). I've had great luck with the niles SPK-1. You could use the 12v tigger from the Yamaha to trigger it. That way if the Yamaha is on, he'll be using his surround sound. If it's off, he'll be listening to the 2 channel. I can't think of any user errors that could cause any problems with this.

What is the old amp- it's not a tube amp, is it? You don't want to remove the load from a tube amp while it's on.

How are you switching between the amps? If the old one is solid state, you could build a switching device for less than $25 in parts, but if you set it up to have both amps connected to the speakers at any time, it's wrong and a bad way to allow using both.

I'd just use a Niles SPK1 to switch the speakers. Connect using the 12V trigger on the Aventage, then use a nice 2 channel amp of your choice. I'd recommend Anthem, Parasound, or Marantz!


Edit: Sorry didn't see this was mentioned already!

As chris said, You could make your own button for the guy using a switched power outlet that would power the amp, speaker switch and turntable.

[Link: amazon.com]

I feel for you, man! It sounds like you had a problem early on ("doesn't sound as good as") and for some reason you didn't work out just what the problem was, nor did you come here to ask about it. Then you tried solving something not understood, which just made things more complicated. At least that's what it looks like to me. I think we could have spared you some grief if you had asked here months ago.


What's your basis for saying this? Do you have any brand and model recommendations? I know I seem to be the reference guy to ask about brand and model, but all the gear we supply is supposed to be high fidelity; "warm" implies not flat response in the mid bass; if you're going to recommend such a non-hifi item you should at least give a hint as to what product you're talking about.

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drewski,
Do you know about phono inputs? Did you think about them in trying to work this out?

The RX-A730 does not have a "phono input." Therefore an "RCA out" from a "record player" will sound like total crap, as well as being about 20 dB too low in volume, when plugged into Audio In 1 or Audio In 2 jacks of the 730. Lookee here:



The recording process of a phonograph record modifies the flat response of the audio to fit the blue curve. That's because if you used a flat curve to record, the bass would make the tracks so wide that you'd only get a couple of minutes on a 12" record. If you play back a record without compensating for the record curve, the sound will be extremely tinny and about 20 dB too low in level.

The red curve is used for playback to restore the bass and cut down the highs. The product specifically called a "phono preamp," and the "phono input" of a preamp or receiver, also correct for the recording curve.

So if you run the "RCA out" of the "record player" through a "phono preamp," then plug into the RX-A700, everything should be all right. No need for the cheap amp, speaker switching, operator error because he forgets how to do it, etc.

And is it just too too f@cking tedious to say it would help to know the brand and model of the thing you're calling a record player? Why would you try to solve a technical problem with audio components and think you can do it without EVER being able to look up on the internet, or ask about, the exact items involved? It sounds like this has been a total pain in your ass, but those are the problems you need to pin down with information.


Well, no, not if you don't introduce a phono preamp to the mix.


Well, no, not if you don't introduce a phono preamp to the mix.


Well, no, not if you don't introduce a phono preamp to the mix.


Analyze the actual problem of "does not sound as good" and proceed from there. I think it's lack of dealing with the EQ curve of phono playback.

You should have asked here about this way back when the "record player" didn't sound good on the RX-A730. We could have helped you avoid the pain and could have kept the customer from getting rude about this!

Long and short is we where using a Niles ABS-1 to do the switching. It works but it is level sensing so the secondary 2 channel amp has to hit a certain level to rollover. I don't have the spec's on the older amp so I can give you specific's there. And yes the Yamaha does not have preouts so a new amp would be needed regardless. The homeowner and I were in agreements to go with the surround receiver until we showed up onsite and the 2nd amp was brought to the table. The SPK-1 would have been a better solution over the ABS-1 but that wasn't the complaint.

I spoke to the guy who installed it today and we ended up first trying to hook up a newer turn table that had RCA's. Well that didn't work so he found another garage sale turn table that only had a phono output and that was different then the original turn table he showed me. So we had to install a preamp AND THEN had to Y it off into both the old amp and into SONOS. Sonos never had a problem but the old amp had a lot of noise coming through the speakers until it started playing a LP.

Everything would switch accordingly but it rollover might not happen if the volume was too low. And the noise also gave the customer a reason to call us. Both issues were fine when the system was operated properly. But it's one of those janky things that would understandable frustration. I finally said the science experiment was over and we need to go with the surround receiver only. But the sound much more dynamic with the 2 channel amp.

If I did have preouts, would you guys go with a 2 channel amp for the L/R's even if it has a different tone from the surround receiver?

I would just keep the 730 there have the speaker output default to the record player(preferably install the ABS-1 defaulted to the record player) then take the 12volt trigger from the 730 and have it trigger the speaker/line level switch.

 

I went through all this crap and finally just set up a two channel system, perfect results every time.

The Rega Phono pre amp is a good affordable way to get in the game and it has a USB if the guy wants to copy vinyl to digital domain. $175.00 everywhere.


[Link: rega.co.uk]

[Link: needledoctor.com]

[Link: amazon.com]

Even now there are issues we could help you with.


You haven't told us whether there is a phono preamp, that equalizes the signal, is in here anywhere.


That reminds me of someone's signature to the effect that "we're not using that component because the client's sons don't like them, and they are experts because they are in finance." As far as I can see, the second amp was a confusing and complicating issue, NOT a solution.


This is really frustrating. You already said the one you're using has RCAs. THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE.


In what way? Tinny sound? Volume too low? Buzz? For God's Sake, Man, surely you can DESCRIBE this! I'm ready to tell you to hire a pro!


I bet this was on RCAs, mofo....


A PHONO PREAMP? ADD DETAILS!


That doesn't make sense. By the way, what kind of noise? a low frequency hum? A buzz? Static? White noise? All of these are possibilities but the kind of noise must be named to solve the problem.

It does make sense that you would have buzz all the time if you did not properly connect a ground wire from the "record player" to the ground of the phono preamp. This is sometimes completely unobvious because there are phono preamps that don't have ground connections, even though this is ALWAYS needed.


An unfortunate issue with that switch.


Much more dynamic, like not tinny and too too quiet?


AH AT LAST MAYBE A BIT OF DESCRIPTION -- "it has a different tone" -- I take it it's kind of tinny, maybe, lacking in bass and stupidly accentuated on the high end, just like the recording curve in my earlier post?

I truly believe that you need a phono preamp. By the way, how old are you? Did you ever have a turntable? This is not a putdown; it's like talking about Elton John and me asking how old you are if you didn't know that "Goodbye, England's Rose" (1997) had a whole other set of lyrics (1973) long before Diana died.

If you had pre outs, your signal would sound just as bad in the old amp, unless you plugged them into the phono in. Then, you'd have the low noise of your pre out signal, with the even lower signal of the phono output; this would be amplified and equalized and the result would be a good-sounding music signal with a crappy unacceptably loud level of noise along with it.

What is the make and model of the phono preamp you're using?

Ernie I'm 35 and have never even owned a record. We are using (I believe) a RDL EZ-PH1. Originally we were planning on hooking up a POS turn table that has a selectable phono/line output. When that didn't work, he provided us with an older player with a phono output. So out of the turn table, into the preamp, RCA splitters to Sonos and vintage amp (not into the Yamaha). I wasn't onsite so I cannot confirm the type of noise but I believe it's white noise likely do to the age of the amp. You have to understand I'm asking for general advice because I wasn't the one onsite dealing with these issues. I only got the 15 min overview Friday at 5pm so I'm sorry I'm not providing exacting details you are looking for.

I'm assuming the vintage amp has a lot more power across 2 channels vs. the Yamaha. Of course because I don't have the specific amp, I cannot provide accurate details for comparison just that I was told it sounded a lot better. I'm assuming it has to do with the power and the dynamic headroom.