A customer of mine has an 18,000 sq. ft home that sits on 52 acres. He had a walking path installed around the perimeter, which is a little over a mile around. We are installing a 70 volt speaker system and he wants to be able to use a remote from the anywhere on the walking path. He would like to use an RF system like the one in his house (Pronto Pro). Any ideas?

Wow, I'd look at maybe doing some type of wireless ethernet and tie that into your automation system. 802.11b is probably your only hope of doing that, with repeaters located around the property of course.

Then he could control his home with a WI-FI enabled Palm OS device, actually any device with wireless capabilities to the 802.11b protocol.

Matt's got it; we use a Cisco Aironet system at work - because of hallways and concrete it takes hundreds of access points to make sure there is overlap at any point of every floor in the building, but outdoors the range and omni-directional capabilities are much better. One access point (transciever) covers a big area. We use two different systems: Limited signal cellphones and wireless LAN cards docked in laptops and PDA's. (both work for onsite use only)
We've got it tuned so that when you leave the property (literally when drive out onto the main streets), the signal just drops and you lose your connection. In other words properly adjusted your customer's system SHOULD be fairly free from intervention by intefering signals. (And wireless network hackers ?? YIKES !!)

He would also be able to read AND answer his email, and have access files and pictures via his PDA over the same network. With the kind of RAM those PDA's are packin' you might think about using one for all these purposes instead of carrying a Pronto around.

But then there's the learning curve of walking away from the Pronto in the Media Room and then having to try and remember where the same functions reside on the PDA. But hey, I read you can set up some pretty nice skins on the PDA's, so you ought to be able to approximate the same layout.

On the other hand a person with a spread like that can afford a couple spare Prontos.

Why not just get on his cell phone, and have his personal servant change the channel? On a serious note...how are 70 volt system for sound quality? I'm just sitting here at night reading and responding to most any post that interests me. Oh, and listening to a damn good Steve Earl song.

If you want to keep it simply think about using a crestron

With a good yagi antenna I can grab your 802.11b signal from 3 miles away, with netstumpler I can grab your ssid and with my handy-dandy wep decrypter I can have your 128bit WEP key in as little as 2 hours. Then from three miles away I can play tricks with your network that would make your head spin!

point being just because the little radio in your 802.11b pccard or cfcard can't pick up your signal, doesn't mean you are safe. The only way to easily reduce your risk is to lock down the client devices by MAC address, and if you really want to get secure add RADIUS server authentication.
If you are interested in any of these things respond and I will answer your questions.

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[Link: xantech.com]

By using upper case characters emphasis was clearly placed on the key word "SHOULD", and the caveat "fairly" preceded the word "free". We have to assume that no one is publicly aware of this A/V network, and thus no one is likely to be actively attempting to crack it.

When evaluating a security measure you need to first evaluate the threat potential. If you install a dedicated computer to support your A/V network, and isolate your PERSONAL computer from that network, you should be "fairly free from intervention". The chances that the data in question is valuable enough to waste time hacking is negligible. What level of bragging rights and "hacker cachet" can be associated with "I brought down John Doe's A/V network" ??

However, the chance that some renegade A/V "hacker cell" is parked down the block operating out of a Cold War surplus Pinzgauer equipped with former Soviet Block intrusion/detection equipment still looms large. If you see multiple rotating halo antennae, use your 802.11b A/V network to contact the Black Helicopters.(Of course the "Reds" are always listening and they'll be tipped off.)


There is always someone with the inclination to "play tricks", "from three miles away" with a network. Whether they just nibble away aimlessly until they "pick a winner" or use a program to capture your password from SMB's and then "run the missile codes" to parse the hash.

There will always be a way to get in. Each time you adopt a new technology or implement an additional layer of security, the rats will be at the door, trying to gnaw a hole through it.

I like to compare those "rats" to the vandal who breaks off the antenna on your car, and then scratches your paint with the jagged mast. Yes, it does take more brains and determination to hack a network, (Can you say "premeditation"? - Mr. Rogers) but the intent is curiously similar. Each villain wants to cause you grief and each derives some kind of devilish satisfaction knowing that they were able to commit an act behind your back. If you ARE NOT aware that they've been there, there's no fun for them.

They either get smart, or get caught; Mudge vs Mitnick. Mudge realized he could still show people how smart he was while collecting BIG revenue doing so. Mitnick could not let go of the "glee factor" and continued to bedevil his pursuers until he got jail time. Now he gets a few peanuts thrown at him for some TV appearances."FREE KEVIN" (???) Yeah right! He got what he deserved.


A harbinger of doom; note the repetitious phrase of choice was "I can", NOT "a hacker could". This just shows to go ya' that one-upmanship is in the blood.

I hope all this tech banter will serve as a warning that if you venture into the great unknown with this "Wi-Fi" network you should make absolutely certain your customer's valuable data is protected.
And what about DR?(Disaster Recovery) What's your contingency plan? Where is your customer going to get all those CCF's and IR codes should a hacker break in, steal them, and then maliciously "wipe out" the originals?

Oh! Wait! I guess he'd get them RIGHT HERE in the public domain, where he got them originally.
(No! The A/V hackers have sacked Remote Central's DB!) That's it; you need a nightly backup. Keep a primary copy onsite and send a "clone" to Iron Mountain Storage.

OK, here's what you need to sell the customer on:

*Biometric logon with passwords that change dynamically every thirty seconds; you should be able to get a fingerprint scanner for the PDA/'s. In anticipation of a catastrophic PDA failure (I fur-got to charge my batt-ry) you could install a few hardwired biometric access points at strategic locations throughout the system. With "an 18,000 sq. ft home that sits on 52 acres" you'll need some saturation. I recommend 2 in the command center (for redundancy), 1 in the central A/V room, 1 in the bedroom, and at least two out on the walking path.(Measure the total length of the path and split it into thirds to provide equidistant proximity between redundant outdoor control points and the one in the main dwelling.)

* Install an RSA ACE/Server and issue each member of the family a SecurID token (get a $75.00 deposit on each token) and have them create a PIN. (Loss of token results in loss of privileges until a new deposit is paid/token issued.)

*Install a Radius server.

*Use the latest iteration of L0phtcrack (LC4) to periodically evaluate the quality of passwords created by the customer, his spouse, and his children. Eight characters MINIMUM, upper AND lower case, in alphanumeric combination is the new defacto recommendation for STATIC passwords. Heck with it: Initiate a max characters rule so you can charge for Help Desk support when they forget their passwords.(You can only harvest this revenue if you leave them in an "unsafe" static password environment; you might want to weigh that against the profits associated with biometrics and RSA.)

*Have a quarterly Cisco onsite security audit.

* Have redundant overlapping audits from @stake.

*Use pervasive detection software to see if the customer, his wife, OR kids are storing static passwords in online documentation.

*Automated backups with fee-based offsite archiving service.

When your customer hears about the level of security you've brought to the table he'll be oblivious to the fact that it costs more than the sum total of the hardware and installation costs of the A/V system itself. If you find a customer who's willing (paranoid enough) to implement this level of security, you'll DEFINITELY get repeat business from him/her.


This message was edited by Sheik_Yerbouhti on 06/24/02 01:14.11.

Wow, well, I say just have a personal servant change it like MN said. It's probably cheaper.

As far as 70 Volt goes, you can actually get very good High/Mid Bass with it these days. Still need a direct coupled subs for thumping bass. But it's passable for outdoor, non critical listening.

Matt: There's nothing wrong with your original suggestion that Mike consider 802.11b. Mike's customer's A/V network only needs minimal security, actually IT doesn't need much security at all. As I said if the A/V network "sees" the same wire as the customer's home computer, there needs to be some isolation.(Assuming the customer has anything he's worried about on his personal computer.)

Some people just assume that since full security measures aren't mentioned, they don't exist. A typical A/V network is hardly deserving of the security attention we might give a production IT Enterprise environment.

Let me plagarize five words and one numerical value from Matt, and then a complete sentence from Mike:

"As far as 70 Volt goes" it should be FINE for music that is only meant to "lilt around the ears" whilst enjoying "a walking path installed around the perimeter, which is a little over a mile around."

(I wanted to come clean on the plagarism B-4 billybobb busts me.)

Well, I charge 5 bucks per word and 10 bucks per numerical value....

Put up a website and I'll click your banners until we're even. (I've got blisters on my fingers!!!)
Better yet I'll redirect some of my NHT sales commissions to you.

Mike,

You are better off using some type of real control system like CRESTRON. Are you familiar with this product. If you dont use something robust and more expensive, the system will be unreliable and your client will be very unhappy.

Petite dimensions of 5.7"(H) x 8.8"(W) x 3.3"(D) mean the Crestron STX-1550C should slip right into a shirt pocket IF, your name is Gulliver. If the customer finds the '1550 "unwieldy" you might suggest the 32 Button CNRFT-32A RF Panel. More compact at 6.04"(H) x 6.29"(W) x ?.??"(D), however if the customer recognizes the name Crestron he/she may recoil at the remedial appearance of the '32A.

An effective range of "3 ft to 75 ft. (up to 150 ft. outdoors)" means you might need 36 STRFGWX's (2-way RF Gateway/Transceivers) if the path were linear. Fortunately the customer's walking path is a loop and you may get sufficient overlap (barring physical signal obstructions) with as few as fifteen transceivers.

Plan ahead with at least two recharging kiosks along the path, equipped with ST-DS docking stations.

Not to dis' Crestron; if I were suddenly endowed to afford such amenities Crestron is the first direction I'd start looking. A current brower-based system on a PDA MAY NOT do everything the customer wants, but I just don't see a (currently available) "all Crestron" system completely satisfying all of Mike's customers requirements either.


There's no "there there" yet, and when there is Crestron will almost certainly adopt an existing platform/OS combination and provide software to make it "feel & do" Crestron. Crestron sells hardware so they may well "hi-grade" the platform, and only sell the interface loaded on a Crestron branded device. (Which will alienate "Techies" and slow Crestron's trickle down to the "people's" market.) They (Crestron) already interface with common LAN technologies so the Crestron control system won't care where the command originates from, so long as it is a command it can deal with.

My point is whether Crestron "hi-grades" 802.11b or simply provides the installers the tools to implement/integrate it (PDA software is ALL that is missing), Wi-Fi will be the way of the near future.

You only need to look around to "smell what the iPAQ's cookin'". From what I see happening on iPAQ displays PalmOS et al had better do something SPECTACULAR quick, or they will go the way of Mac with a diminished "cult" following.

Mike Richardson: Let us know where this project is in regards to architecture and completion.
(Beware the Pinzgauer!)

Crestron recently showed a new remote that might be ideal for this (and other) applications. It's based on the Pronto Pro and has a range of 1500 feet -- multiple receivers can be used for icreased coverage.

[Link: crestron.com]

This message was edited by Tony Golden on 06/27/02 20:29.42.