I appreciate those that have spoke up in Fortress's defense. Turrml, again I'm sorry that you feel the way you do, but at no point was confidential information given to a competitor of yours. Here are the facts:

1. A longstanding dealer requests a quote it goes through several rounds of revisions.

2. We get contacted by Turrml (who is not a Fortress dealer) and he requests a quote and names the exact specification that our dealer has been working on, even names the leather color. We don't have our leather choices online, so the only way he has this information is if someone has given it to him.

3. We realize his request has already been quoted, so I contact our dealer and let him a know that another AV company has requested the exact same quote, and ask them if they mind if we open up Turrml as a new dealer, if they aren't ok with that I also suggest we can either have this AV company contact them and buy through them, or not open them up at all. Our dealer prefers we don't open them up as they've already done a fair amount of legwork on this quote. I understand where they are coming.

4. Before I have a chance to call Turrml back and let him know that we won't be able to open him up as a dealer at this time he's called back upset about the situation. I try to explain to Turrml that we as a company do what we can to protect our existing dealers, that there are often times a dealer has quoted a job and the interior designer contacts us to try and open an account and we protect the existing dealer and refer the designer back to them. I also know on numerous occasions that we have lost sales protecting a dealer, because the designer wasn't able to open an account with us and so they steered the customer in another direction. We understand this risk, but want to have the reputation in the industry that we will do what we can to protect our existing dealer, and not open up just any anyone who contacts us. I'd think most audio video companies and most people would respect that.

At no point was anything specific shared with either company, so I don't know what confidential information Turrml is referring to, while in fact he is the one that has the information on the quote from our existing dealer, so that point is a bit baffling. In retrospect, I wish I had just recognized Turrml request and made the decision right then and there that we won't be able to open him up as a dealer at this time. Obviously it would've avoided this situation. We as a company pride ourselves on having a good reputation in the industry. The steps we did were done to protect our existing relationships, it certainly wasn't done to upset a potential dealer, and I'd think everyone if they were in this situation would want this same courtesy.

You still do not see anything wrong with what you or your sales guy did? i appreciate dealer loyalty i really do, but this is petty and pretty low to go "tattling" and i highly doubt you would of denied termmul's dealership and order of 40k worth of seating, he is a well respected member here and does some incredible work. I am a direct dealer of a very protected line, i know of 3-4 dealers in the area and we regularly compete against each other (friendly competition) if company X decided to favor one of us over the other 3 dealers and started calling things in i would think we would put the breaks on and find a different vendor. Then again us 3-4 dealers are very ethical so.....

Your stunt has cost you another sale from us and from others on this site, what was done is disgusting and im glad termmul brought this up.

I think its funny that he took a competitors quote and placed the exact same thing down to specific color code then comes on here calling the company unethical for not being cool with that.

Let's make sure we all understand, Termmul is not a Fortress dealer. I think Termmul may have oversold how "welcoming with open arms" Fortress was to him on his phone call.

From the sound of it, the client was completely sold on Fortress and thus the need for Termmul to seek out Fortress instead of using a brand he may have sold in the past. After the existing dealer did the design and sales pitch, Termmul felt he was entitled to step in with the quote the ID shared with him, sign up as a dealer real quick and get the sale. I wouldn't be surprised if the ID also had attempted to be a dealer to get this sale. I completely respect Fortress for their action.

I still don't understand the complete 180 of opinion several of the posters in this thread have flipped compared to threads in the past. Everyone is always ranting about manufacturers not being loyal and this is an example of just how loyal Fortress was to the existing dealer.

We share common protected lines with dealers in our area that consists of friendly competition as you put it and I agree that it would be unethical for one of those lines to favor one over the other but I think everyone in the thread calling it unethical is under the assumption that Termmul was signed on as a dealer, which he was not. Fortress made the choice to be loyal to an existing dealer.

So of the 4 dealers in your area that share a very protected line we will call brand X, if you had worked with a client and gone through the legwork of design and sales pitch to the point the client was sold on the product, then CI number 5 that is not a dealer(whether he is a trunkslammer or 20 year old company) gets wind, say from an ID, that you have this client sold on brand X. They call brand X and request dealer status. Upon closer inspection they realize this is the same project. Would you as a long established and good standing dealer not want a phone call from brand X asking if signing him on as a dealer will interfere with your sale that you have already put work into? Again, I respect Fortress and applaud them for their action. There are very few CI manufacturers that are still loyal to their dealers and not just the dollars they can make.

I wonder how hard turml had to work for that sale?

Ironic indeed.

When you say "exact specification" what do you mean? Part numbers/models/color codes or like "3 rows of 3 seats in beige".

The reason i ask is that if the interior designer said "3 rows of 3 seats in beige oh and i like that stuff i saw at Fortress" and then had 2 AV companies bid on the job...whats the problem? This happens all the time. Client or consultant or interior designer will often spec something and put it out to bid with multiple companies.

If he called up with exact specifications like make model color codes etc then obviously he got the information from the ID...who got it from the other AV company...but...this ethics issue is with the interior designer not the new dealer whos calling you up.


Thats strange. You call up an existing dealer and tell him a new guy wants to steal his customer and give him the option to be stolen from...and he says hed prefer not to be stolen from? This sounds like the plot to a bad movie.

I believe you contacted your dealer and told him what was going on. I believe that you were trying to stand up for/protect your existing dealer. I think thats great. But i dont believe that you and your existing dealer discussed possibly making the new guy a dealer so he could steal the sale. That sounds like bipartisan fluff that never happened.


I respect it. We used to sell a lot of one of the bigger lighting products. #1 dealer in our region every year. Then we got a job where we quoted the product and the client set himself up as a dealer...even though we called our rep and explained to him that this client would try to set himself up as a dealer. He had done it before with every trade on the job. We did everything we could to alert them. They set him up as a dealer anyway. When we called our rep he conference called his boss. His boss basically told us to quit whining. He said...and i quote "you are selling a crestron system there too right? so you're making money on the job right? so whats the problem?".

We stopped selling the product. Yanked it from all on going jobs. There was a 12 month delay on the project with the client who set himself up as a dealer. By the time the house was ready to work on again we sold the client crestron lighting. So not only did they lose one of their top dealers in our area...they also lost that sale.


How do you know he has any confidential information? Still trying to determine if the ID was passing around proposals or if this was a loose spec that two different dealers were asked about.


Agreed. I can't imagine you need two dealers in the same area for theater seating. Maybe if it were a big dealer that did big numbers or made a large opening order but not for one small job.

sale.


You have to remember that this is the internet. We are all strangers. We don't know you or the original poster. I don't know if you're an evil company pawn or if hes a trunk slamming bastard. Maybe you are dating the other dealers attractive sister?

My guess is that this is just a big misunderstanding caused by the interior designer. I still don't get why the interior designer is involved with the AV guys theater seating. Either provide the seating or don't. Why do IDs think they get a piece of everything that goes into the house? Not making enough money with your $800 candles and $15,000 sheep skin pillows? If they want to provide seating...do it. Don't ask me about it...buy a book go to CEDIA make some phone calls and learn how to spec it.

And to you AV guys...quit working for free. Charge $250 an hour to consult about seating when the ID wants to provide it. You will end up making more on the deal and you wont have to break a sweat.

If Fortress where to do a simple search of Terrmul company website you could easily discern they are a stand up company.

He does have his big boy pants on and will place a big boy order from another vendor. Good looking out....

I actually respect the loyalty Fortress' showed to their dealer! I wish more vendors would show that kind of loyalty. I work for an integrator here on the east coast, and Fortress is one of our vendors. I actually know them quite well, and they're loyal to the dealers that are loyal to them. I'm sure they were just trying to look out for their dealer. You gotta respect that...

Im more amazed at the first time posters popping up out of the blue defending the seating company than I am the situation! Makes you go hmmmmm,,,,,.

I smell cheese.

Yup!

I am glad the guys at Fortress replied to disprove your theory that anyone who disagrees with your opinion must be a stakeholder in the controversy.

I normally never get involved in these message boards,but felt compelled to sign up and comment when I see really good people get thrown under the bus by ill-informed people with inordinate amounts of time on their hands.

Fortress has protected my company numerous times when interior designers or trunkslammers have tried to buy the product I specified with the client. I think most dealers would appreciate that loyalty. I applaud it. Since Fortress is very customizable the quotes become very custom once your client picks arm style, back style, stitching, fabric, arm width, seat width, curved array, seat qty, on and on. It is a lot of back and forth to spec a proper seating array. whoever said "3 beige chairs" obviously does not sell a lot of home theater seating. it's never that simple. Anyhow, with all of these variables it is very easy for fortress to see a quote request that looks fishy. Had terrmul actually put in any work on creating his own spec, he would have gotten away with opening up a dealer account for his one time sale and would have gotten his 40k worth of chairs. Terrmul, by not educating the client or designer on your range of services,you blew the sale. Don't take it out on Fortress.

So... what's up Terrmul? Did you just take the other companies quote of seating and call Fortress?
And, how did you get the quote? From the ID?

We haven't heard from the op in a while.

I'll chime in from the customer side having watched this thread with interest. From what I understand from the ping pong match are these items:

1) customer selected Fortress - I'm not sure how that decisions was arrived at (ID or Fortress dealer);
2) Termul is a long standing and well-respected CI, but has no dealer direct with any seating manufacturer;
3) Termul is the main CI with a long-standing client who selected Fortress for a job primarily handled by CI with the involvement of an ID;
4) in some way, Termul learned that client was interested in Fortress and had some inkling of client's preference for Fortress and possibly more particular choices of model seat and cover finishing;
5) Termul wanted to control the whole job to the extent possible to reduce friction later regarding service (as should be expected);
6) Termul inquired to Fortress about becoming a dealer and indicated what the first purchase would be;
7) as best can be understood, there was no understanding of confidentiality between Termul and Fortress about the request to become a dealer;
8) Fortress contact Fortress dealer about Termul inquiry and presented options to Fortress dealer - Fortress dealer did not desire to be middle man in sale so Fortress declined to source customer-selected Fortress items to Termul as potential dealer, but did not specifically decline to sign-up Termul as a Fortress dealer for other projects.

So essentially we have a seating company that makes great products (so as not to be accused as a shill, I am a Fortress customer - 9 Palladium leather seats in love seat and couch formation), that was forced into a standoff between a potential CI as a customer and an existing CI. Fortress is then ranted about as being unethical because it sided with the Fortress dealer.

Lost in the equation is the Termul client - the client wants Fortress. Figure it out and focus on that. I get Termul's situation and if it's really about service, get an agreement so that Termul will be a Fortress dealer, take over servicing the furniture and control the whole job, and Fortress dealer makes the sale and be done with it. Customer is happy. ID is happy. Termul controls post-install of furniture and gains a seating line. Original Fortress dealer makes sale, is stuck with a competitor in Termul, and yes, profits with no downside in the future for service of the furniture purchase.

How would the customer react to this? Well, the customer got what was desired all along and Termul further extended his relationship with the client.

Yes I know what the margins are on a $40k sale - grow up, you came in 2nd and were late to the party on the furniture deal. Don't torture Fortress as being "unethical" because you disagree with its decision. Whether right or wrong, it was a reasoned response.

Would this discussion have really taken place if we were talking about a $4,000 Stewart front projection screen. I suspect not, because there's less margin at stake. In that situation Termul would have just rolled on. Once the dispute is heightened because of dollars, not service, you leave yourself exposed. And yes, the customer would understand that Termul did not sell the furniture so if there's an issue post-install, Termul would expect some type of leeway with client and Fortress to resolve the issue.

Jay

He already said in the OP he didn't have the other dealers quote. The ID likely gave him the exact make, model and color for what she was wanting since she had that info on her quote.