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Topic:
Ethics question
This thread has 211 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 45.
Post 31 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 02:30
ErikS
Active Member
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699
On May 16, 2013 at 21:23, Terrmul said...
ErikS, I agree with you on some points. Where I find their actions unethical is informing a competitor of our intent to compete having said to me on the phone that they would welcome me with open arms. If you have no intention of selling to us, say so, maintain professional confidentiality and let your dealer win the job on their merits.

They likely said they would welcome you with open arms not knowing that your first bid was going to be in direct competition with an existing dealer that had already given a proposal. Once they put two and two together is when they may have opted to inform the competing dealer as you say OR the competing dealer found out you were now bidding the chairs and called Fortress to see what was up and if you were now a dealer. After thinking a bit more about it, I am leaning towards the dealer called them. I still do not think Fortress offered a discount, I think the competing dealer offered this or the client/ID are possibly playing you and the competing dealer to undercut each other so they get a deep discount. The ID is likely how the other dealer found out you were bidding against them with the same product of which he thought you were not authorized for and in turn sparked a call to Fortress.

It is unethical to offer to make us a dealer then actively move against us to ensure we don't get the sale. I would also point out that an ID trying to get an account is one thing but we are a reputable AV dealer with no intention of signing up just for one sale. We have direct lines with most manufacturers and seating is one area we do not. This was a prime chance for them to be the company to fill that hole in our line up.

I do not think they actively moved against you to get the sale. One of their EXISTING dealers had already bid the project and you come out of nowhere to sign up as a dealer and bid against them. That dealer likely called Fortress with questions.

I also think your company is complicit in the poor practice by taking their calls. Not suggesting you are consciously being complicit but maybe you just haven't thought about it because it works in your favor.

In our situation, it has been ID's that have no intention of supporting the line ongoing and Fortress has no intention of handing out the dealer status. In most of the cases they have not only let us know but referred the ID to us as a dealer. To my knowledge this situation has not happened with a competing CI trying to obtain dealer status.

I think that Fortress may have handled it better in that they probably should have called you back to see what the situation was regarding signing up to compete with an existing dealers bid or to confirm that you were not a one sale sign up. At that point they should have confirmed you would be eligible for dealership or said that upon further review it would not be a good time to sign you on.

If it is exactly as you say and after hanging up the phone with you, immediately called competitor to inform them and gave a discount to undercut you, then yes that is unethical but I don't think that is how it happened. If they did call your competitor it was likely that after seeing what you were requesting a quote for they thought it was very familiar and called your competitor to see how much friction this would cause.
Post 32 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 06:39
iform
Advanced Member
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760
On May 16, 2013 at 17:55, Terrmul said...
He has asked an interior designer to design the theater room and in her capacity she sought a quote from a competitor of ours for seating not realizing we sell theater seating.

On May 16, 2013 at 21:23, Terrmul said...
We have direct lines with most manufacturers and seating is one area we do not. This was a prime chance for them to be the company to fill that hole in our line up.

So... which is it? You sell seating but you aren't a dealer for any?

It seems to me that Fortress called the original dealer and the ones whom first got a quote from, to ask them what the deal is?

Crestron, Triad and other manufacturers have asked us what we think of so and so person or company to see if they are legit or a trunk slammer etc.

But...they have never given us information pertaining to a potential company quoting against us for a particular project. I find that extremely shady and unethical. But then, we have not heard from Fortress or the Fortress dealer so I will with hold judgement until they want to chime in if they are seeing any of this.

Why not quote seating from a competitor to Fortress? United Leather, Cinematech, Acoustic Innovations and Elite are all reputable seating companies.

Last edited by iform on May 17, 2013 06:53.
Post 33 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 11:09
ErikS
Active Member
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699
On May 17, 2013 at 06:39, iform said...
But...they have never given us information pertaining to a potential company quoting against us for a particular project. I find that extremely shady and unethical. But then, we have not heard from Fortress or the Fortress dealer so I will with hold judgement until they want to chime in if they are seeing any of this.

It would be great to hear from all sides of the story as I think that would clear up the gaps in the scenario. The other dealer could express their feelings of having one of their direct lines given to a new dealer to compete with them, Fortress could explain whether they thought Terrmul was a legit company(I think you are but they may not have) as well as say whether or not a discount was given or even express their intentions in the matter. Unfortunately this is unlikely and like a**holes, everyone has their opinions and they all stink in others views.
Post 34 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 11:12
goldenzrule
Loyal Member
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8,470
I do not think that is the issue to be honest. While I do not disagree with you ErikS, I simply think that this whole situation could have been handled better by the manufacturer. I understand a company protecting their dealers. However, going to that dealer and telling them about this new company inquiring about their product for this job (if this is how it happened) is simply not ok. Their business is to sell their product to their customer, not give "insider" information to help that dealer complete the sale.
Post 35 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 11:23
3PedalMINI
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7,860
Holy ShiT!

Im so glad i saw this thread. Im doing a project that will will also be around 25-30k in seating. was going to place an order with them in a couple weeks, i will move onto another company and have the ID choose the seating, united leather seems like a good place to start.

I hope fortress has google alerts set and know about this thread. With Termoils sale,longshots comment and now mine this highly unethical salesmen just cost fortress close to 100k in seating in immediate sales let alone any other dealer that has seen this and will have future projects.

I would absolutely find another seating manufacture, prove the seats at a cost + installation just to spite everyone. In the end the client wins and saves some money that can be used in other areas of the AV project, maybe an upgraded PJ? and i would talk to the CEO/owner of fortress and link him to this thread too.

Disgusting



The Bitterness of Poor Quality is Remembered Long after the Sweetness of Price is Forgotten! - Benjamin Franklin
Post 36 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 12:00
Mr. Stanley
Elite Member
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16,954
On May 17, 2013 at 02:30, ErikS said...
I do not think they actively moved against you to get the sale. One of their EXISTING dealers had already bid the project and you come out of nowhere to sign up as a dealer and bid against them. That dealer likely called Fortress with questions.
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 37 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 12:13
BigPapa
Super Member
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3,139
Seriously unethical. I'd be mad. Fortress should stay the hell out of the process.

Allegience is based in box whoring: whomever sells the most of their seats. Its not what's best for the clients or the dealers.

Any attempt to rationalize Fortress' response as ethical cannot escape this reality.
Post 38 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 12:39
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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30,104
On May 16, 2013 at 19:55, longshot16 said...
Tell the ID what happened and see what she wants to do. You might be surprised what she thinks of the whole situation.

This is wisdom. Maybe the rest of this whole thread is noise. But here's what I wrote about the noise:

On May 16, 2013 at 18:04, Mac Burks (39) said...

Or just tell the client what cost on the chairs...making it impossible for the ID to mark them up. I would sell seating from someone else at cost plus installation just to spite all three of them. (ID, competitor and manufacturer)

I dunno. "I'll see your crap and raise you one sleaze." And I do this while objecting to what they did?

On May 16, 2013 at 19:48, 24/7 said...
There are two types of sales people, those who want 'THE' sale, and those who want an ongoing relationship with YOUR business.

1) The sales guy who ratted you out is 'THE' sale guy and he's already picked his favorite dealer.

This is the short-sighted guy who does not realize that the people he steps on while on the way up are the ones who will spit on him on his way down. Another point of view is that he thinks there are an infinite number of customers so it doesn't matter what he does to any one customer... which is also worth pointing out to the client.

2) The manager who will hear the grievance is the same guy that hired him.

Yeah, but maybe he has a boss who wants to stay in business after both of those guys leave. If they're not faithful to new business (you), why would they be faithful to the company? After all, there are an infinite number of companies to work for, too.

On May 16, 2013 at 21:23, Mac Burks (39) said...
How the heck did Fortress know who this was for in the first place? Is everyone using the same spec sheet? I just helped wrap up a $50mil home and i can tell you that not 1 single vendor of ours knows where any of their product went.

Here's how:
If Terrmul happened to mention the town, neighborhood, or anything else that would pin down where the manufacturer should ship the chairs to, that would do it right there. I don't expect anybody here to warehouse chairs and then deliver them separately -- the mfr would ship to the client.


On May 17, 2013 at 01:16, bcf1963 said...
In the world of business that I come from, where hundreds of millions can be at stake based on someone learning something they shouldn't, we use the legal system to help stop these problems from happening.

Before we will do business with someone, we have them sign an NDA.

You're saying you have, say, Dell, or TI, or National Semiconductor sign an NDA before you will do business with them? Or Siemon, or God help you, Siemens? Hughes? Microsoft? Yamaha? Denon? JBL? Won't they simply laugh in your face once you've explained it twice because they could not believe what they were hearing the first time? These guys know not to step over that line and tell anyone about your transactions or possible transactions. Fortress did and they are complete sleazeballs.

They should have told Terrmul that they already have a dealer in that area and that this needs to go through them (which it already was).
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 39 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 14:37
techvalley
Long Time Member
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July 2012
197
Did the OP just take the opening companies quote and say I can copy this to a tee, same price and all after the furniture was sold? Is this ethical, more ethical than the original company trying to save his bid by discounting?

If the OP can't and/or didn't just offer his preferred furniture line the job must have been sold, value built in that specific brand. The customer mentions to the OP that he's getting the furniture and shows quote. OP says no problem, I can match the quote. Other company follows up with who knows who on a bid they may have thought was sold, and was.

Taking other peoples work backfires on OP and other company as they are forced to discount. ID and/or furniture manufacturer remain loyal to their connections.

This could have been avoided by the OP doing leg work and trying to sell the furniture upfront himself. Something like gee Mr Customer, this theater is going to be fantastic, what do you plan to sit in? Then he could have built a quote himself.

Last edited by techvalley on May 17, 2013 14:47.
"try to become not a man of success, but try rather to become a man of value."
Post 40 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 14:58
bcf1963
Super Member
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On May 17, 2013 at 12:39, Ernie Gilman said...

You're saying you have, say, Dell, or TI, or National Semiconductor sign an NDA before you will do business with them? Or Siemon, or God help you, Siemens? Hughes? Microsoft? Yamaha? Denon? JBL? Won't they simply laugh in your face once you've explained it twice because they could not believe what they were hearing the first time? These guys know not to step over that line and tell anyone about your transactions or possible transactions. Fortress did and they are complete sleazeballs.

Yes. As a matter of fact, the normal procurement/business process with these companies is to sign a mutual NDA, that covers disclosing business information for both parties, and doesn't allow that to be disclosed to third parties without written approval. This is incredibly common in the electronics industry.

By the way, the company that I work for has such corporate NDA's with at least five of the companies you mentioned. I doubt even one laughed when signing the corporate NDA was discussed. As it is mutual, it protects them, as much as it does us. In my career I've worked for two IC manufacturers, two Computer/Laptop manufacturers, and a more general consumer electronics company, as well as a co-owner of a startup in the consumer electronics area. Signing NDA's at the start of a business relationship was never a big deal... It was expected.

I agree that if Fortress told the other installer that they received a quote request for the job, they are sleazy. I said that in my posting earlier in this thread. But you can't count on companies/people having ethics, you need to protect yourself, and an NDA does exactly that. It puts both parties in a position of being able to expect a behavior, and being able to collect damages if the agreed upon behaviour is breached.
Post 41 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 17:10
mwstorch
Long Time Member
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375
Terrmull:

I understand your frustration, we just lost a lighting and shading job to a company brought in by the ID. This to a customer that frequently has "small service problems" (code for come over and have a beer) on Friday afternoons. The loss of revenue was nothing compared to the emotional impact of not being considered for these services.

If you (or 3Pedal) are looking for seating call Michael Murphy at CinemaTech, (800) 688-6680. Their seats are not cheap, but they are among (if not the) best. When I became a dealer a few years ago, he personally flew out to meet me. A class act all the way. CinemaTech also offers ARS (formerly Owens Corning) acoustical solutions which we have installed in a few theaters.
Post 42 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 20:26
custominstallpro
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3
Since when is it unethical to defend and support a loyal dealer to your product over a dealer that buys somebody else's products?

Weren't you trying to steal a sale by selling what the other dealer spent time designing and selecting with the interior designer? Were you just going take that work and become a dealer of that product so you can get this one sale? Isn't that unethical?

Vendor should express loyalty to the people that build their business.

How would you feel if a vendor opened up a competitor as a dealer just to take one sale away from you? I bet you would be crying unethical until the cows came home.

Fortress is a great company, very ethical, and PROTECTS their dealers from trunkslammers trying to hijack seating sales from their dealer base. THAT IS GOOD BUSINESS and completely ethical.

And many other seating companies do the same exact thing. Cineak requires you to register a project and they will not quote that project for anyone except the dealer that specified the product.

Stop whining and put on your big boy pants.
Post 43 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 20:32
custominstallpro
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As to the guys who are saying " I'll buy United!". Wouldn't you want your vendor protecting you from trunkslammers trying to become dealers of one of your products just to take a sale from you?
Post 44 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 20:34
kgossen
Super Member
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On May 17, 2013 at 20:26, custominstallpro said...
Since when is it unethical to defend and support a loyal dealer to your product over a dealer that buys somebody else's products?

Weren't you trying to steal a sale by selling what the other dealer spent time designing and selecting with the interior designer? Were you just going take that work and become a dealer of that product so you can get this one sale? Isn't that unethical?

Vendor should express loyalty to the people that build their business.

How would you feel if a vendor opened up a competitor as a dealer just to take one sale away from you? I bet you would be crying unethical until the cows came home.

Fortress is a great company, very ethical, and PROTECTS their dealers from trunkslammers trying to hijack seating sales from their dealer base. THAT IS GOOD BUSINESS and completely ethical.

And many other seating companies do the same exact thing. Cineak requires you to register a project and they will not quote that project for anyone except the dealer that specified the product.

Stop whining and put on your big boy pants.

I was wondering when some one from Fortress was going to create a fake account and chime in.

Took you enough time.
"Quality isn't expensive, it's Priceless!"
Post 45 made on Friday May 17, 2013 at 20:39
3PedalMINI
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Hmm, so it seems that fortress does have google alerts set. or maybe the sleezball salespuke does because custominstallpro sure seems to be on the defensive and defending their actions. its your first day here and you just happen to stumble onto this thread and the only two posts you make are in here AND fortress is from california and so are you.

Hmm, this company should be the poster child for ethics. Bravo!

BTW: termmul is NOT a trunk slammer, they do some really nice work. Infact just about the furthest thing from a TS

Last edited by 3PedalMINI on May 17, 2013 20:56.
The Bitterness of Poor Quality is Remembered Long after the Sweetness of Price is Forgotten! - Benjamin Franklin
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