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Topic:
RA2 Dimmer Behind Blank Wall Plate
This thread has 52 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 45.
OP | Post 31 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 13:00
SB Smarthomes
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Spoke with Lutron tech support and their concern are cooling and blocking the RF signal if the wall plate is metal.  Will wait to see what the electrician has to say...
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Santa Barbara Smarthomes
Post 32 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 13:10
Ernie Gilman
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If Lutron developed and put on the market a product that would not pass inspection, they'd have wasted a bunch of money. To make sure their products end up saleable, then, they'd have to have consultants, or someone on staff, completely conversant with the electrical code, who could tell you what will pass inspection. Have you asked them their opinion, not just regarding heat and RF, but also re conforming to code?
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 33 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 13:32
SB Smarthomes
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No, I'm leaving code compliance up to the jobsite electrician. The electrician is the one who will be responsible in the end for this passing inspection.

I don't want to be the one to say that "Lutron said this is up to code" only to find that the local inspector doesn't agree.
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Santa Barbara Smarthomes
Post 34 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 13:45
GLS
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On 1332600620, SB Smarthomes said...
Can anyone confirm if a RA2 dimmer switch will fit behind a blank wall plate if you remove the front cover, LED light pipe and that little clear plastic piece that makes contact with the switches down on the circuit board?

Take one apart and try it in a single gang box. The blank screws go into the same holes that you are screwing the dimmer into though, so that may be a problem.
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Doing a retrofit/remodel and have several banks of switches (4-7 gang) with no where to hide the switches.  Crazy idea is to place the switches down low at outlet height with a blank cover over them painted to match the wall and then use a wall keypad for control.

How are you getting the switch legs down low? Wire stretcher? Are they all being rewired? Are you able to get to the loads/lights?
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Client and designer don't want to see the switches, but no closets or accessible attic or crawls space to hide them... this is the only thing I could come up with to minimize the visual impact.

So they won't let the dimmers themselves be visible if the blank plate 
idea doesn't fly?

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Won't work unless I can strip off the front of the switches and get a blank to fit over the top.  I was worried about the air-gap disconnect that swings out from the front of the switch disabling the switch if the cover is removed, but I'm pretty sure the switches still work with the cover  off.

Other issue might be heat dissipation?

The dimmers lose heat through the frame and faceplate. Ever notice how dimmers get warm when they have been on a while? It could shorten the life of the dimmers. Might even be a fire hazard, though that might be stretching it. It will probably negate the UL listing by doing that, and that is what the AHJ will have the most problem with. You are using a device in a manner that it wasn't intended or designed for. Code just says that they have to be accessible, and they are.

If you could do it without removing the faceplate it would be better. Maybe a small access panel that could be painted, and you could install the dimmers behind that. If they aren't all ganged together it would help them breathe as well. Might have to get something custom made.

Good luck. That's a tough situation.
G.
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"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another" Proverbs 27:17
Post 35 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 13:54
3PedalMINI
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actually i feel like them being covered would look worse then just having the standard plates on with a decora cover. Especially if there is furniture going in front of them. just order the switches in a color that matches the wall the closest.

WTF? is behind a for gang cover down by the floor? is what i would ask if i saw that lol :)
The Bitterness of Poor Quality is Remembered Long after the Sweetness of Price is Forgotten! - Benjamin Franklin
Post 36 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 14:24
Ernie Gilman
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On March 26, 2012 at 13:54, 3PedalMINI said...
WTF? is behind a for gang cover down by the floor? is what i would ask if i saw that lol :)

So would I, but we are sensitive to these things. I check out the speakers in the supermarket, outdoors between stores in a mall; I see the pneumatic tubes in the Costcos....

This reminds me a bit of several clients and designers who have been appalled that I suggested four speakers in the ceiling of a large kitchen, for even and low volume coverage. They said it would look ugly. After I insisted and it was done, the clients never looked at the ceiling and only noticed the nice music. In this portion of the project, where decisions are being made as to placement, everyone is WAY more sensitive about what goes where than they will be when it is done. Then it disappears for most people.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 37 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 14:29
SB Smarthomes
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On March 26, 2012 at 13:45, GLS said...
How are you getting the switch legs down low? Wire stretcher? Are they all being rewired? Are you able to get to the loads/lights?

Most of the wiring comes through conduit in the slab foundation so lowering the dimmers wont be much of a problem.  Some do come from above, but I think the electrian can use an oversized box for the keypads and use this as a junction to extend down where necessary.

On March 26, 2012 at 13:45, GLS said...
So they won't let the dimmers themselves be visible if the blank plate idea doesn't fly?

Well if the blank plate idea doesn't work, then they'll have to live with the switches or pay to have them relocated.  Client has money, but I think they will live with the switches rather than try to relocate them... electrician gave them a ball-park estimate of $10k-$15k to relocate them to hidden areas.

I think it would look a lot worse to move the switches down low and keep them visible than to just keep them where they are.  I really don't have a problem with the blank wall plate down low painted to match the wall.  Few people would notice this, but I'm sure that everyone who came to the house would ask why they had light switches down by the floor.

On March 26, 2012 at 13:45, GLS said...
If you could do it without removing the faceplate it would be better. Maybe a small access panel that could be painted, and you could install the dimmers behind that. If they aren't all ganged together it would help them breathe as well. Might have to get something custom made.

Good luck. That's a tough situation.
G.

Already talking to the GC about this.  Considering some type of vented panel to cover the switches, just have to be sure that it's RF friendly.  The result might be a small niche recessed into the walls down low with the switches installed normally and a decorative cover to conceal.

Have to get the electrician started in the next couple days and designer left yesterday for 2 weeks out of the country so may have to throw this on her when she returns to work out how to hide them.
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
OP | Post 38 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 14:34
SB Smarthomes
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On March 26, 2012 at 13:54, 3PedalMINI said...
actually i feel like them being covered would look worse then just having the standard plates on with a decora cover. Especially if there is furniture going in front of them. just order the switches in a color that matches the wall the closest.

WTF? is behind a for gang cover down by the floor? is what i would ask if i saw that lol :)

I disagree with this... few people will notice the blank wall plate, but everyone would ask them why the hell they had light switches by the floor!

I'm trying not to count on furniture covering any of the locations, the furniture layout show pieces in several of the areas, but I don't know if it has a solid or open back and things like furniture placement often changes by the end of the project or once the clients move in.
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
Post 39 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 16:44
Ernie Gilman
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On March 26, 2012 at 14:29, SB Smarthomes said...
I think it would look a lot worse to move the switches down low and keep them visible than to just keep them where they are.  I really don't have a problem with the blank wall plate down low painted to match the wall.  Few people would notice this, but I'm sure that everyone who came to the house would ask why they had light switches down by the floor.

This is really simple. "We had a chihuahua trained to turn the lights on and off. Unfortunately, he's since died."

I think that's a pretty thorough explanation that covers everything.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 40 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 17:01
39 Cent Stamp
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They have switches (and dimmers) now. They want to replace switches with controllable switches. They want to not see the new switches.

The only proper way to make the switches disappear is to relocate them or replace them with centralized lighting.

Moving them down low or covering them with wall plates would be like mounting outdoor Sonance speakers to the beams in the ceiling instead of using in-ceiling/in-wall speakers.
Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 41 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 17:43
scottedge267
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On March 26, 2012 at 16:44, Ernie Gilman said...
This is really simple. "We had a chihuahua trained to turn the lights on and off. Unfortunately, he's since died."

I think that's a pretty thorough explanation that covers everything.

hahaha
Post 42 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 20:23
Fiasco
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You can not remove the face of a Ra dimmer and put it behind a blank plate. The RA switch will cease to function when you remove the switch cover because you are also removing the FASS. Without the FASS, the switch will be disabled.
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OP | Post 43 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 20:33
SB Smarthomes
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On March 26, 2012 at 20:23, Fiasco said...
You can not remove the face of a Ra dimmer and put it behind a blank plate. The RA switch will cease to function when you remove the switch cover because you are also removing the FASS. Without the FASS, the switch will be disabled.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think this is incorrect.  I think with the switch cover completely removed the FASS switch contacts close again and the switch comes back on.

This is the first thing I thought of and I've tested it with both a standard Lutron dimmer and also a URC RF dimmer which I think both share the same configuration as RA2.  I don't have any RA2 dimmers in stock right now, but have a bunch due in tomorrow.
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
OP | Post 44 made on Monday March 26, 2012 at 20:40
SB Smarthomes
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On March 26, 2012 at 17:01, 39 Cent Stamp said...
They have switches (and dimmers) now. They want to replace switches with controllable switches. They want to not see the new switches.

The only proper way to make the switches disappear is to relocate them or replace them with centralized lighting.

Moving them down low or covering them with wall plates would be like mounting outdoor Sonance speakers to the beams in the ceiling instead of using in-ceiling/in-wall speakers.

The main reason for lighting control on this job is really for convienence, but cleaning up some switches is also a high priority.  Difficult to wire for centralized lighting in this home.  RadioRA will be a good fit and in many areas we've been able to relocate switches into closets and pantrys, just not in these three areas where we're trying to come up with an out of the box solution.
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
Post 45 made on Tuesday March 27, 2012 at 18:42
Fiasco
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On March 26, 2012 at 20:33, SB Smarthomes said...
I'm not 100% sure, but I think this is incorrect.  I think with the switch cover completely removed the FASS switch contacts close again and the switch comes back on.

This is the first thing I thought of and I've tested it with both a standard Lutron dimmer and also a URC RF dimmer which I think both share the same configuration as RA2.  I don't have any RA2 dimmers in stock right now, but have a bunch due in tomorrow.

I've got a bunch installed in the bar. I'll go upstairs and pull a cover...
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