11/18/09 - A major update brings our collection to over 1,350 manuals for 115 brands.
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9/04/09 - Latest activity-based model features a color screen at an economical price.
9/03/09 - * OK, one string – you may have to learn something!
8/22/09 - As it turns out, those who do not learn from history... still won't repeat it.
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The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:
| Topic: | Audio break - in period for new speakers This thread has 56 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 30. |
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| Post 16 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 18:24 |
amirm Regular Member |
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Posts: | December 2008
177 |
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On November 1, 2009 at 13:39, bluerhythmav said...
I had a pair of Forests for quite some time before becoming a dealer. They have over 200 hours on them, and I absolutely love 'em.
I pulled a new pair of Forests out of their boxes for a demo to a client... and even though I used the same room, same placement, and same head-end gear - I stood there scratching my head while thinking "WTF"?
The story doesn't seem complete. Did you then break in the new pair and then they sounded the same? If not, then that could be sample to sample variation which is quite common when components are sourced cheaply and without testing.
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Amir
Contributing Editor, WideScreen Review Magazine
Retired Digital Media Insider |
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| Post 17 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 18:47 |
Mr. Stanley Elite Member |
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Posts: | January 2006
10,343 |
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I worked in a high-end shop for quite a while. We always noticed a big difference after putting a new set of speakers on the sales floor. Primarially, the bottom end would fill out and warm up a bit. The woofer and mid range surrounds and the inernal suspension (spiders) needed to loosen up a bit. The spiders are made up of flexible mesh material that is sort of varnished... The woven material would become a little less stiff after several hours of use, especially if there was a fair amount of low frequency material played through them. White noise or de-tuned FM had little effect.
Theils, Vandersteens, B&W's, Rogers, Harbeths - they all "blossomed" - got warmer in the bass, after being beat-up for a while doing demos. Even Magnapans sounded warmer and more open, after the mylar got a work-out.
A few speaker companies we represented, "broke - in" their drivers at the factory, measured them, and matched them in speaker pairs, also making sure the drivers in the matched pairs, had the same output levels within a db or so.
I believe Vandersteen still does this. That is why we had to be careful selling them, to make sure the serial numbers of each speaker matched up.
When I worked at Phase Linear, I set up the speaker production line, and we did the same thing... we measured each driver, and paired up similar spec'd speakers. It was a little tedious because each pair of this particular model of speakers had 22 drivers!!! 12 (1.5 inch) tweeters, 4 (3.5 inch) mids, 4 (8 inch) mid bass and 2 (12 inch) sub drivers.
We measured each and every driver, and finished speaker system. That was in about 1975. Bob Carver who was the man behind Phase Linear was a real stickler. A fun time back then!
I can't tell you how many speakers we didn't or couldn't ship because they didn't meet our spec. We gave the speaker parts that didn't meet spec to some of our employees so they could build at least, decent speakers for free\, rather than returning them to the suppliers.
In the old days Paul Klipsch used to do the same thing. He used to really tick off Electro Voice, who supplied his horn tweeters, and Eminence who built his woofers, and Atlas, who built the mid-rtange drivers for his folded corner horn speakers. He would measure, all the drivers and send back (for credit) drivers that were too far off spec --- but most other speaker companies didn't really care.
Last edited by Mr. Stanley on November 2, 2009 15:54.
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"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright |
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| Post 18 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 20:04 |
WhiteVan Lifestyle Super Member |
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On November 1, 2009 at 18:24, amirm said...
If not, then that could be sample to sample variation which is quite common when
components are sourced cheaply and without testing.
You Obviously dont know much about Totem!
I'm not giving you crap. I'm just saying if you knew how things worked there you would never have posted that comment.
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This post has not been EBG approved and makes no claim as to the proper use of English, spelling or punctuation. |
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| Post 19 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 21:05 |
Hasbeen Regular Member |
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On November 1, 2009 at 20:04, WhiteVan Lifestyle said...
You Obviously dont know much about Totem!
I'm not giving you crap. I'm just saying if you knew how things worked there you would never have posted that comment.
I must be Nostradamus. I knew this post was coming 3 posts ago. LOL
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| Post 20 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 21:12 |
Fins Senior Member |
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On November 1, 2009 at 21:05, Hasbeen said...
I must be Nostradamus. I knew this post was coming 3 posts ago. LOL
More like Carnac the Magnificent
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| Post 21 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 21:33 |
BobL Founding Member |
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Posts: | March 2002
623 |
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I guess B&W, focal and Triad aren't good brands. Next time you get some new speakers in measure them in a quasi-anechoic location and then again after being broken in. If it is such a noticeable difference it will definitely be measureable and quantifiable!!!
We are hosting a speaker shoot out in a few weeks and we have a new pair of Triad Gold monitors coming in for the shoot out. I'll be happy to measure them when new and after broken in if you'd like. At the shoot out will be B&W 802D, Focal micro utopia, Paradigm signature, and the Triad.
Here is a quote from Paul Scarpelli of Triad on AVS.
"Seriously, this is the first thread where someone has referred to a magnet as a moving part of a driver. Okay, I'll give you that the electromagnetic structure moves, but none of that has a break-in period. IT ISN'T MECHANICAL. The spider and surround may become more compliant after an hour or so of spirited playing, but the ambient temperature in the room usually will make a bigger (yet still miniscule) difference. And, yes, I've studied Jung's work on capacitors, saturation, and dialectric retention (which is NOT periodic water weight build-up.)
And have you noticed that the "best" speakers generally need the longest break-in period? To follow that logic, they could be the least accurate, because when would they stop "breaking in?" When the cones flop around like a flag in the wind? In this sense, the "best" speaker might be the one that doesn't go through the very arbitrary period known as "break-in."
Do not get me started. Kal, stop me. Please.
KALMAN???"
Hope this helps.
Bob
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| Post 22 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 22:28 |
amirm Regular Member |
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Posts: | December 2008
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On November 1, 2009 at 20:04, WhiteVan Lifestyle said...
You Obviously dont know much about Totem!
I do know them. But have never visited the factory to know if they test speakers before they ship them. This is what they say about their speakers: [Link: totemacoustic.com]
"Each speaker unit is assembled with great precision, using meticulously selected components. "
If they tested each unit, including the drivers, I would think they would mention it there. Granted, it could be something they do without talking about it. But in absence of that, I don't automatically assume all their speakers are matched.
I'm not giving you crap. I'm just saying if you knew how things worked there you would never have posted that comment.
How what things worked? Making speakers? You read my signature and you assume I don't know how people build speakers? Good grief....
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Amir
Contributing Editor, WideScreen Review Magazine
Retired Digital Media Insider |
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| Post 23 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 22:31 |
amirm Regular Member |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2008
177 |
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On November 1, 2009 at 21:05, Hasbeen said...
I must be Nostradamus. I knew this post was coming 3 posts ago. LOL
Even funnier was that I did too when I typed that post :). But thought 50% chance he would consider the point I was making rather than implying Totem makes perfect speakers and they all sound the same.....
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Amir
Contributing Editor, WideScreen Review Magazine
Retired Digital Media Insider |
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| Post 24 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 22:49 |
WhiteVan Lifestyle Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | July 2007
2,661 |
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amirm, I did not read your signature and I did not post my words as an attack in any way. Here is some good reading on Totem. I hope this helps define the point I was trying to convey.
Totem Acoustic – Who & What We Are
Drivers – Hard Facts:
We source our woofers and tweeters from the finest raw driver manufacturers in the world. (Dynaudio, Seas, Scan-Speak, Vifa, Peerless, MB, etc.) All drivers are designed, engineered and specified by Totem, and then the actual manufacturing is done by these world class vendors in Northern Europe, often with tooling paid for by Totem.
For absolute sure, we could build more of our own drivers, but this would, without a doubt, limit our design choices. Vince feels there is simply no advantage to limiting his choices! Sometimes, the engineers at these European factories will advise Vince that a certain driver cannot do what he wants. Vince will sit down with them and ask them to experiment with the glues, the motor structure, the pole piece, the whatever…then he’ll dig into his own pocket to help them pay for the tooling for the unusual request, and very often the drivers will come out the way he wanted in the first place! Totem, thru the years, has helped these vendors forge their outstanding reputations, which is why they are always eager to sit down with Vince!
One of Totem’s greatest strengths is its incredible on and off axis frequency response, coupled with tremendous phase accuracy, throughout the frequency range, and throughout the dispersion pattern…perhaps the greatest in this entire industry. Therefore, the listener isn’t obligated to sit in that equilateral sweet spot, that praying mantis position, that the high end industry still clings to! With Totem, the customer (and his family) always has the liberty to listen and enjoy the speakers as they please. Can you imagine investing in a pair of speakers that don’t let you move around the sofa, or to another chair in the room?! It’s crazy that the high end has promoted itself like this, and Totem is rock solid proof that it doesn’t have to be this way! Always remember, that music and movies are much more pleasurable when enjoyed with the company of others, and that Totem doesn’t confine the maximum enjoyment to one tiny sweet spot!
All our drivers carry a 5 year P & L warranty, and it’s safe to say that unless they are grossly abused, will last for a decade or 2 beyond that.
The engineering of all Totem products is brought to life by Vince’s exclusive mathematical formulas. This is a huge reason behind Totems powerful and pure sound! A classic example, how do we get the 4.5 inch woofer in the Arro to go down so low? As you demo various Totems, you’ll be asked again and again, “where is the subwoofer?” What a compliment!
Always remember; instead of spending his life in front of a computer, and guiding a design through “engineering conditioned” knowledge, Vince does the exact opposite. His formulas, which the others wish they had, create a unique and ultra high quality sound that always leaves you wanting more. This is critical to understand, as there is no listening fatigue with Totem!
Yes of course, Totem has state of the art computers and software, and calibrated microphones, and other testing gear - of course! But Vince uses these tools as a back up to his proprietary mathematical formulas, and then he tunes all designs by ear, by listening to prototypes for weeks and months on end, with analog AND with digital sources. Nothing at Totem EVER gets released to the dealers unless Vince is 100% satisfied with all aspects of the sound! Proof: Tribe III on-wall was 15 months late in delivery!
Crossovers – Hard Facts:
For 99% of the world’s speaker manufacturers, a crossover network entails a PCB board (printed circuit board) which uses a ferrite core, and added resistors and capacitors. Certainly this is a lot easier to inventory and assemble, but there is a terrible cost to this way of doing things. PCB’s are subject to environmental contaminations in their manufacture, and they are known to cause the sound to saturate at certain frequencies and volumes, as well as being subject to phase irregularities.
Totem’s crossovers are always wired by hand, and hard wired at that! They feature the worlds best air core coils, and always with 99.999% pure and oxygen free copper. Oil and exquisite foil capacitors as well as special order resistors are considered by the industry to be too expensive for speakers in Totems price range, but they are in many of our designs! You can open up our little DreamCatcher Monitor at $525.00/pr. and see that it’s exactly equal in parts quality to our $8500.00/pr. Wind!
These crossovers are wired by hand, in Montreal, by skilled and experienced technicians earning a real North American wage! (No OEM from Asia!) We use very little solder in most of our crossovers, because in some instances solder affects micro dynamics and clarity. When we are forced to use solder in certain places, it’s always “WBT Silver Solder”, the purest and cleanest in the industry. For the most part, however, no solder is used. Instead, we prefer to mechanically crimp wires into place. It simply sounds better! Visually, these crossovers are incredibly impressive to expert dealers and end users, but the ultimate proof is always in the listening.
These crossovers are not as complex as they may appear because the drivers and cabinets are made to our exact spec, and nothing at Totem is ever built without thinking of the other parts that these parts will have to marry up with. In other words, the most important word you can ever use to describe Totem is “synergy.” Synergy between cabinets, crossovers, and drivers, to reproduce music as purely, honestly, and dynamically as we possibly can.
For example, if Totem has to use two 0.5 microfarad caps to achieve better sound than a single 1.0 microfarad cap….then so be it! The vast majority of our competitors won’t do that because of the doubling of inventory dollars and manufacturing complexity! For 21 years now, Totem has taken the high road - in service to music!
If our manufacturing cost has to go up - to do it right - then so be it! Totem inventories over 5 million dollars in capacitors and resistors, just to have access to the right combinations for each and every model! Totem does not limit its possibilities; Totem does not limit its designs! Totem will do whatever it takes, to make that finished speaker sound truer, more pure, more natural, and more dynamic! If Totem has to sacrifice internal margins to do it, then so be it. There is no board of directors to answer to! There are no shareholders to answer to! Just 1 owner…Vince, the head designer. This is one of the most important reasons why we have always sounded better!
Lastly, the crossover networks in TAC and TAW in-ceilings and in-walls are taken just as serious as the networks inside our cabinet speakers! Proof: Even though these open back speakers come from China, (the only products in the history of Totem that ever did) the crossover networks are not done in China! They are done, by hand, by a skilled technician in Montreal, just like the cabinet speakers! The drivers in the TAC and TAW series are hand selected and sonically approved by Vince, and the non-overseas crossover networks perfectly tie them together. Moral of the story: Don’t let your dealer lump TAC and TAW in with Sonance, Speakercraft, Niles, and the others! There are real reasons why TAC and TAW cost more than those everyday in-walls and in-ceilings.
Internal Wiring – Hard Facts:
The wiring inside every single Totem speaker is unique, special, and crucial to understand. The wiring is totally unique to each and every model! Never are the same wires used in multiple places, in multiple models, to save inventory dollars or time to build! Each and every wire, inside each and every Totem crossover network, feeding each and every Totem driver, has been selected by Vince’s ear….and only Vince’s ear! No “design by committee” at Totem! All these wires, regardless of gauge, are 99.999% oxygen free copper and they are all Teflon coated! This means that these wires will never oxidize, which will keep the electron flow always the same – even as the years go by. These ultra high grade wires have also been chosen because the copper has been stretched slowly, allowing the molecular crystals to align themselves in a very cohesive fashion, once the speaker has had a proper break in time. You can actually strip the internal wire of a 10 year old Totem speaker, and it will always remain intact, a bright silver, even after 10 plus years of play time!
This is tremendously important! It helps a Totem speaker to sound the same in 10 plus years as it does after initial break in! “What you’ve purchased, Mr. Consumer, will hold together sonically much longer than the other brands! What you hear now, is what you will always hear!”
Cabinets – Hard Facts:
Totem, being a Canadian company (lots of trees in Canada!) makes its own cabinets, by hand, at our own wood shop about 1 hour outside of Montreal. All veneers are hand selected! All wood-finished cabinets are veneered on the inside, as well as the outside! Why would we double our internal cost by doing this? Simple, as the speaker ages, the stresses and the pressures on the inside of the cabinet are the same as on the outside of the cabinet! That means the cabinet will have the same sound in 20 years as it does when brand new! No side panels bending or warping, because even a millimeter or two hurts the sound!
Totem cabinets and veneers are considered “fine furniture” grade, and once they are stained, they are absolutely world class in fit and finish! In addition to being beautiful, they are tough as nails, because they are not “V” cut! Instead, as usual, Totem takes the high road and lock miters the panels into place!
Lock mitering is time consuming and expensive, but it much more securely glues the horizontal and the vertical panels into place - so again, as the speaker ages, it doesn’t lose an ounce of its structural integrity! No loss of sound quality from a cheap cabinet loosening up!
Totem cabinets, from The Rainmaker on up, use a very special and very expensive internal ultra-high tech micro-damping material called Borosilicate. Borosilicate was developed by NASA to absorb and dissipate the tremendous heat and energy faced by space shuttles as they re-enter the earth’s atmosphere. Borosilicate helps these shuttles not “burn or vibrate apart” as they hit our atmosphere at tremendous speed. The vast majority of speaker vendors use foam and/or poly fill to crudely control resonances inside the cabinet. These materials are not good enough for Totem, because they are known to deteriorate/change in time and be parasitic electro statically, and that will cause them to change and alter the sound as the speaker ages! Borosilicate pays for itself in long term enjoyment and long term stability, allowing no change in the speaker’s “Q” factor! That plays a huge factor in Totem speakers sounding the same for many years after the warranty expires! This combination of internal veneering and Borosilicate damping allows for a controlled and continuous energy flow thru the cabinet, far beyond what foam and polyfill can do!
Electronics – Hard Facts:
Totem works closely with the good people at BASH, in Toronto, to design and build the amps that power our subwoofers. These are not “off the shelf designs!” Nothing at Totem is ever “off the shelf!” Vince has never spent much time promoting this, Mr. Modest that he is, but he’s darn near as skilled at amplifier topology and parts specificity as he is at speakers! He goes to Toronto often to sit down with the BASH engineers to design and check on the amps in our powered subs, and of course, the rack mount amps that are coming very soon to power our new line of in-wall subs.
Totem’s BASH designs simply sound more musical and more powerful than you would expect from looking at the specs…..exactly how a Model 1 Signature, for example, sounds so much more musical and powerful than a 5.5” 2 way mini monitor has a right to! Talk to your dealers about these amps being co-designed by Totem and BASH together, for superior sound.
Design/Aesthetic – Hard Facts:
Totems designs may appear simple, and perhaps in today’s super fast paced world, boring…but always remember, we don’t want to be trendy, we want to be long term, Totem products will always have that classic look that never goes out of style! Once a dealer invests in Totem, he doesn’t have to worry about a model needlessly replacing another model, and having to clear out the original. He can actually purchase back-up without worry! From a reps point of view, this may be a disadvantage to sales, but this is strictly a short term disadvantage! In the long run, the dealer will only grow to respect Totem more and more, as his inventory dollars are always safe! Further to this, Totem doesn’t discontinue perfectly good models, just for the sake of change! No planned obsolescence at Totem! Never! Here’s the proof:
Dreamcatcher – In the line since 1999
Mite – 1992
Rainmaker – Since 2003
Mani 2 – Since 1991
Arro – 1996
Sttaf – Since 1994
Hawk – Since 1999
Forest – Since 1997
Wind – Since 2000
TAC in-ceiling – Since 1996
TAW in-wall – Since 1996
Inner Spirit – Since 2005
Tribe on-walls – Since 2004
Storm Sub – Since 2004
Thunder Sub – Since 2002
Lynks – Since 2002
What other vendor, in this industry of “planned obsolescence” can make a claim even close to this?
Think of a BMW, or a Mercedes-Benz, or a Rolls Royce, or a Jaguar, or a Bentley, or an Aston Martin or a Ferrari – they all have that family look that goes on for decades. Why do the world’s most prestigious car makers stick to their family look forever? Simple, consistency means everything to the worlds most discerning clients.
End users, especially if they are enthusiasts or “well-to-do” want to know what a manufacturer stands for! Everyone knows what BMW stands for! Well, Totem is exactly the same, no more, and certainly no less!
Always remember, instead of spending his life in front of a computer, and guiding a design through “engineering conditioned” knowledge, Vince does the exact opposite. His formulas, which the others wish they had, create a unique and ultra high quality sound that always leaves you wanting more. This is critical to understand, as there is no listening fatigue with Totem!
Summary – Hard Facts:
I would like to close this breakdown by reminding you and insisting again, that Totem is very different! Totem falls into its own category, which means we are still growing, even in these very challenging economic times! Why is Totem growing in tough times? It’s because educated dealers and educated consumers are tired of the endless bullshit propaganda from vendors who change their models every single year! Please note, I am not talking about electronics, where the vendors have to change their models every single year as new technologies come about. (Think of all the versions of HDMI, or the new Dolby and DTS lossless surround codec’s)
I am talking about speakers, where the technology is so very mature and stable. If a speaker vendor is changing his models every year, he’s telling you that he doesn’t know who he is, he doesn’t know who his client is, and he doesn’t know who he wants to be when he grows up! Totem knows exactly who and what it is, and what it wants to be when it grows up!
No speaker vendor anywhere has done a more elegant and thorough job of moving into surround and architectural type products than Totem! We weren’t the first serious 2.0 speaker vendor to move into these new areas of business, that’s for sure, but nobody did it more carefully than Totem! Proof: Totem surround and architectural speakers are not dumbed down versions of our monitors and towers, they are not diluted in any way, and they never will be. There is only 1 standard of quality at Totem, and it goes across the entire line!
We offer xx% margin across the entire line, we offer xx% 30 day terms to qualified dealers, we offer xx% if a dealer wants to pay the invoice with a credit card, we offer xx% off for legitimate demo’s, we pay for the freight into the USA on orders that are $xx or more. We offer turn around time on orders of 48 hours maximum, we offer personal, even intimate and outstanding tech support on our toll free line, and we cover each model with a no questions asked 5 years P & L warranty. (Unless a voice coil is bar-b-que’d to death, then we might ask a question or two, but never with hassle) We also send out a thank you letter and a beautiful demo CD to all consumers who send in the warranty card. We police the web continuously to keep the brand ultra clean, we don’t use distributors, and we don’t go to chain stores or superstores. We advertise in Home Theater Magazine, The Absolute Sound Magazine, Stereophile Magazine, and various others. We always have a warm and unique booth at CEDIA and CES.
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This post has not been EBG approved and makes no claim as to the proper use of English, spelling or punctuation. |
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| Post 25 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 23:09 |
amirm Regular Member |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2008
177 |
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Thanks for posting that manifest. I had read it before. And read it again just now, searching for where it says they pre-test every driver, and post test every speaker to make sure they all sound the same. I didn't see any mention. Did I miss it?
Again, they may be doing that. But surely if they are, it would have been mentioned in that long piece.
And to be clear, I am not making an argument for or against break-in, or judgement on Totem speakers. Simply asking if you finished the exercise by breaking the speaker in to see if it sounded like the one you had on the show floor. If you didn't, that is just fine. But it does follow that the assertion that it all had to do with break-in is unproven.
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Amir
Contributing Editor, WideScreen Review Magazine
Retired Digital Media Insider |
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| Post 26 made on Sunday November 1, 2009 at 23:53 |
WhiteVan Lifestyle Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | July 2007
2,661 |
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Every pair is hand assembled, matched and tested.
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This post has not been EBG approved and makes no claim as to the proper use of English, spelling or punctuation. |
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| Post 27 made on Monday November 2, 2009 at 00:03 |
2nd rick Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | August 2002
3,375 |
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On November 1, 2009 at 22:49, WhiteVan Lifestyle said...
amirm, I did not read your signature and I did not post my words as an attack in any way. Here is some good reading on Totem. I hope this helps define the point I was trying to convey.
Totem Acoustic – Who & What We Are
Drivers – Hard Facts:
We source our woofers and tweeters from the finest raw driver manufacturers in the world. (Dynaudio, Seas, Scan-Speak, Vifa, Peerless, MB, etc.) All drivers are designed, engineered and specified by Totem, and then the actual manufacturing is done by these world class vendors in Northern Europe, often with tooling paid for by Totem.
For absolute sure, we could build more of our own drivers, but this would, without a doubt, limit our design choices. Vince feels there is simply no advantage to limiting his choices! Sometimes, the engineers at these European factories will advise Vince that a certain driver cannot do what he wants. Vince will sit down with them and ask them to experiment with the glues, the motor structure, the pole piece, the whatever…then he’ll dig into his own pocket to help them pay for the tooling for the unusual request, and very often the drivers will come out the way he wanted in the first place! Totem, thru the years, has helped these vendors forge their outstanding reputations, which is why they are always eager to sit down with Vince!
On November 1, 2009 at 23:09, amirm said...
Thanks for posting that manifest. I had read it before.
So you have read this before?? And from this knowledge, you assumed that Totem's components are "sourced cheaply and without testing"
On November 1, 2009 at 18:24, amirm said...
The story doesn't seem complete. Did you then break in the new pair and then they sounded the same? If not, then that could be sample to sample variation which is quite common when components are sourced cheaply and without testing.
I did read your sig, but I am curious what it means to this discussion??...
I would no sooner ask your advice on speakers, as ask Vince Bruzzese for advice on how to author an HD-DVD.
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2nd Rick on RC and IntegrationPros.
cinemascope on AVS (but I rarely go back there) |
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| Post 28 made on Monday November 2, 2009 at 00:24 |
2nd rick Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | August 2002
3,375 |
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On November 1, 2009 at 21:33, BobL said...
I guess B&W, focal and Triad aren't good brands. Next time you get some new speakers in measure them in a quasi-anechoic location and then again after being broken in. If it is such a noticeable difference it will definitely be measurable and quantifiable!!!
We are hosting a speaker shoot out in a few weeks and we have a new pair of Triad Gold monitors coming in for the shoot out. I'll be happy to measure them when new and after broken in if you'd like. At the shoot out will be B&W 802D, Focal micro utopia, Paradigm signature, and the Triad.
Do it. I am curious what you will see.
Of course, many speaker mfgs break in their review samples before sending them out, so the point may be moot.
If you can lay your hands on some "virgin" samples, I would like to see TEF or MLSSA to get some time-domain measurements as well as the obvious FR plots and sensitivity measurements.
Here is a quote from Paul Scarpelli of Triad on AVS.
"Seriously, this is the first thread where someone has referred to a magnet as a moving part of a driver. Okay, I'll give you that the electromagnetic structure moves, but none of that has a break-in period. IT ISN'T MECHANICAL. The spider and surround may become more compliant after an hour or so of spirited playing, but the ambient temperature in the room usually will make a bigger (yet still minuscule) difference. And, yes, I've studied Jung's work on capacitors, saturation, and dialectric retention (which is NOT periodic water weight build-up.)
And have you noticed that the "best" speakers generally need the longest break-in period? To follow that logic, they could be the least accurate, because when would they stop "breaking in?" When the cones flop around like a flag in the wind? In this sense, the "best" speaker might be the one that doesn't go through the very arbitrary period known as "break-in."
Do not get me started. Kal, stop me. Please.
KALMAN???"
Hope this helps.
Bob
I would respectfully disagree with Paul. My thought is that a low quality spider and surround would probably be loose and floppy from the get go, and that a higher quality would be tighter, and may require a little run time before they reach their final compliance.
Note that I am not saying that Triad uses low quality drivers, or that they have low quality suspensions... I am a Triad owner, and use and recommend Triad in nearly any application... Also, Paul is a close friend and a person who's opinion I respect. I just happen to disagree with him on this topic.
Also, of note to this discussion...
A lot of speaker designers break-in batches of raw drivers before measuring the Theile/Small parameters when they are laying out a design for a new model.
If you really want to write a definitive article on the subject, you should put your hands on some batches of raw drivers from various vendors, and run them through the T/S battery with LMS before and after a fixed number of break-in hours.
(I would grab some literature from the audiophile mfgs to see who recommends the longest period, and then use their number)
So test raw drivers, maybe some infinite baffle tests of individual drivers in an anechoic environment, then test finished loudspeakers....
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2nd Rick on RC and IntegrationPros.
cinemascope on AVS (but I rarely go back there) |
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| Post 29 made on Monday November 2, 2009 at 00:35 |
amirm Regular Member |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2008
177 |
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On November 1, 2009 at 23:53, WhiteVan Lifestyle said...
Every pair is hand assembled, matched and tested.
I am sorry but I must be going blind because I can't find that statement anywhere.
I am looking for something this plain and simple as stated in Revel brochure (a company whose factory I have visited): [Link: revelspeakers.com]
"The three high order, steep slope crossovers are physically separated to prevent mutual interference, and each C52 is individually hand-tuned to within a fraction of a decibel to match the production reference standard."
Here is another reference for their M22 in their manual: [Link: revelspeakers.com]
"Each M22 is individually hand-tuned during manufacturing to match the production reference standard within a fraction of a decibel, ensuring incomparable loud speaker-to-loudspeaker consistency."
Anyway, didn't mean to beat this point to death. :) Happy to move on....
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Amir
Contributing Editor, WideScreen Review Magazine
Retired Digital Media Insider |
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| Post 30 made on Monday November 2, 2009 at 00:45 |
WhiteVan Lifestyle Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | July 2007
2,661 |
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So take the time to visit Totem if thats what you need. I'm sure Vince would be happy to show you around and answer all of your questions.
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This post has not been EBG approved and makes no claim as to the proper use of English, spelling or punctuation. |
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