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| Topic: | Apple TV 3.0 - wow. This thread has 42 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 43. |
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| Post 31 made on Monday November 2, 2009 at 13:11 |
vbova27 Senior Member |
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Posts: | July 2006
1,333 |
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Any media server will do a 10 fold better job than an apple TV and anyone of any age can use it once installed with one issue.
Vidabox and S1 Digital are a synch to use. While much more expensive they can do things that Apple will never be able to do - like support more than 1 format or get away from itunes. Popcorn hour is cheaper and is way more flexible.
Itunes is simply not that good...Apple TV is cool, but in my opinion a failure compared to other apple products. I don't know too many people that are older that own apple tvs. I also dont think they are very flexibile and are insanely hot.
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| Post 32 made on Monday November 2, 2009 at 14:12 |
tgav8rs Active Member |
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Posts: | December 2003
505 |
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I don't understand all this Apple TV bashing. It's a $229 device. What do you expect from something with a price point like that? I for one think it's an outstanding product for what it does and we don't have any problems with our customers using it. It's all about how well you set it up with the sytem and how well you train your customers. It also works well if you know how to program a universal remote to work with it and the iPhone/Touch interface is a great feature. Apple has not advertised this product and therefore it does not get a lot of airplay. But for those of us who know how to integrate it and like how it works it's a great product. And for the record, the software upgrade was worthing of a full upgrade number. It is a significant improvement over the old interface.
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I need control! |
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| Post 33 made on Monday November 2, 2009 at 14:44 |
tim916 Junior Member |
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Posts: | April 2008
30 |
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On November 2, 2009 at 07:42, Audible Solutions said...
This is not a CI product and is designed by a company hostile to the CI business. Does AppleTv have a setting that allows the installer to opt out of this feature? No. Because Apple is gearing these devices to consumers. I limit what the equipment can do. I cannot here.
Alan
You're hitting on something that, IMO, will be a bigger and bigger problem for the people on this forum going forward. Companies like Apple are going to build their gear for the 99% of the market that is not CI. They really have no interest in making things "installer friendly". Unfortunately, alternatives from companies that do cater to the CI business offer products that are often not as appealing and lack features that are important to consumers.
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| Post 34 made on Monday November 2, 2009 at 18:33 |
motech Select Member |
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Posts: | August 2008
1,958 |
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On November 2, 2009 at 07:42, Audible Solutions said...
1. Vudu
2. Request
3. Squeezebox
4. Kaleidescape
If I had time I'd add 3 or 4 more.
Since you don't code or do large jobs I doubt you'd have a clue what a programmer does. I don't need to know every piece of equipment in the job. I don't design every system. Even salespukes have to sometimes give in to client demands on occasion.
Yes, one should know one's equipment. And for someone who connected RS-232 in a one to many configuration because you don't sell control systems this must be a stretch of you limited experience. Apple assumes a similar 1:1 configuration between AppleTV, iTunes and the UI. But this job has iTunes on every touch panel. It's a tad more complicated than your job.
It took 4 hours because it's also not my code and because everyone assumes all problems are the result of code. This is not a CI product and is designed by a company hostile to the CI business. Does AppleTv have a setting that allows the installer to opt out of this feature? No. Because Apple is gearing these devices to consumers. I limit what the equipment can do. I cannot here.
But since you don't code or understand code you'd not understand why it might take time to go through the code line by line to see if the error was in code. On the other hand, I am not familiar with AppleTV or iTunes. I'll also let you in on a secret. I'm also not intimately aware of how every piece in this job was setup. I don't need to be. I'm a programmer.
Alan
sooooo let me get this straight.
you (or your company) took itunes
and put it on every touch screen.
you took something that wasnt meant to be done,
and did it anyway. you shoehorned itunes on to touch screens?
you did something that was not meant to be . .
sounds just like what you told me not to do with RS232.
well it sounds like you got what you asked for.
im sure this is not the first device you installed
that is not geard to the CI world . . yet you are so unfamiliar with it
that you couldnt figure out what was wrong.
maybe you should not have been the one troubleshooting it,
or maybe they should have sent someone who knows how to
troubleshoot the actual install instead of just the code.
not all devices we use are CI geared,
for instance, a standard cable box.
the worst equipment we install by far,
but we do. because we have to.
and yes, there is an option to disable airtunes on these systems.
but it seems you are too stuck in code to realize that learning a product
that you need to support would probably be a good thing.
let me know if you need help disabling airtunes on these systems.
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| Post 35 made on Tuesday November 3, 2009 at 12:25 |
davidcasemore Senior Member |
Joined:
Posts: | January 2003
1,301 |
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On November 1, 2009 at 16:06, Audible Solutions said...
I own nothing Apple. Both of my daughters own iPods. Client turns on the Theater to AppleTV. No sound. But there is sound in the office. What the %$##? How the hell? 4 hours later, remote testing the system and I cannot find any reason in code to explain any of this. And there is no issue in code once the tech goes on site. AppleTV failed to send digital out till it was rebooted. %#*&^%$###ing piece of &^%$#@.
And what of the theater remote turning on the office? There is a setting in iTunes that lets you set audio out from AppleTV simultaneously from your PC and your TV. Client has a PC output, for a variety of reasons including basic PC applications, but also iTunes. Often he has white noise playing and forgets to turn it off. Someone ( client ) uses the setting in iTunes to set AppleTV to both PC and TV and when it was turned on in the Theater guess where else it turned on?
Now it's obvious. We found the setting. But 4 hours of staring at code, and a service call to deal with something that ought not to happen save that the idiots at Apple don't understand that some things are complicated. Try and charge for this. The client will claim he never set the system this way. And though I don't own an AppleTV POS I can tell you that like all Apple products they use broadcasts to communicate. This simplifies things on Apple's end but it really sucks on a residential network, particularly if you control system doesn't like this much traffic ( as is the case with Crestron. ). Add Vudu, a client with 6 people working from his office, multiple Squeezeboxes, lots of touch panel traffic in a very crowded RF environment and you might come to understand why I dislike a product that needs constant reboots ( it drops its digital connection ), increases network traffic and allows the client to use iTunes to screw it up.
Yes, I can change my contract but till labor is entirely T&M it's a fight and a fight you are not apt to win. As for the reboot comments, both the salespuke responsible for AppleTV being on the job and the PM both have this POS and both deal with constant reboots. Vudu? Never; or so rarely it could be never. By the way, network is gigabyte with multiple vLANs. The problem is Apple. The problem will always be Apple. The problem is Apple wants to be only on Apple and they do not make any product that plays with the CI world.
Alan
Hire a Pro.
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| Post 36 made on Tuesday November 3, 2009 at 12:59 |
Audible Solutions Select Member |
Joined:
Posts: | March 2004
2,116 |
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On November 2, 2009 at 18:33, motech said...
sooooo let me get this straight.
you (or your company) took itunes
and put it on every touch screen.
you took something that wasnt meant to be done,
and did it anyway. you shoehorned itunes on to touch screens?
you did something that was not meant to be . .
sounds just like what you told me not to do with RS232.
well it sounds like you got what you asked for.
This is an ignorent, even stupid response. If you had an idea of how ignorent it was you wouldn't make it. But not understanding calculus you are mistified that interest can be compounded or that eddy currects flow from send to receive.
Data over Ethernet procool is data. It was designed to be viewed in a browser so that data can be stripped off and used. This is much different than serial, where by definition it is a device to device communication. But Ethernet protocols are very different. This is why mulitiple computers can speak to iTunes at the same time.
You may begin to see the complexity of the code and the reason you search through it to discover how turning it on in the thater might cause sound in an other room. In the end it was client error and AppleCrap that caused the problem. Your point that more experience with the Apple POS would have been helpful is correct.
But what do I get with AppleTV? I obtain one method of stripping metadata from iTunes. I have 7 or 8 better steaming video players.
im sure this is not the first device you installed
that is not geard to the CI world . . yet you are so unfamiliar with it
that you couldnt figure out what was wrong.
Actually I bitched about having an Apple POS in the system. The client insisted and hence the debacle. Once again I am proved correct.
maybe you should not have been the one troubleshooting it,
or maybe they should have sent someone who knows how to
troubleshoot the actual install instead of just the code.
I was not on site. I was testing the system remotely, an other concpet I'm certain you're unfamiliar.
not all devices we use are CI geared,
for instance, a standard cable box.
the worst equipment we install by far,
but we do. because we have to.
Ah, but what can a client do to a cable box, particularly if I hide the remote? Does it have software that let's you play it in other rooms ( this is coming with D* and FIOS DVR's )? While you are correct and more service calls are related to cable boxes heretofore turning one on in the theater hasn't caused sound to come out of the office.
and yes, there is an option to disable airtunes on these systems.
but it seems you are too stuck in code to realize that learning a product
that you need to support would probably be a good thing.
let me know if you need help disabling airtunes on these systems.
Here I might take you up on this. I was told by the tech who did make the service call that it was enabled. But it cannot be disabled on the AppleTV, only in iCrap. Since iCrap lets the end user turn it back on what good is it? This is what I was told. I'll certainly take your hint that it can be disabled and do it.
This was also just one example. There are hundreds of better solutions to AppleTV.
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On the correct side of the Rubicon |
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| Post 37 made on Tuesday November 3, 2009 at 16:38 |
JGB Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | August 2002
51 |
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There is something to be said for proper spelling and grammar when one is trying to come across as intelligent and well spoken...
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| Post 38 made on Tuesday November 3, 2009 at 17:21 |
39 Cent Stamp Loyal Member |
Joined:
Posts: | May 2007
5,410 |
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| Post 39 made on Tuesday November 3, 2009 at 18:16 |
motech Select Member |
Joined:
Posts: | August 2008
1,958 |
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my main point is that you took something,
itunes, and used it in an environment it was not meant for.
you want to integrate with the itunes library, which is easy to do,
but instead it seems you put the actual itunes on each display.
if you just integrated with the library,
the client would have not had access to the AirTunes Feature.
im not sure what system you are using, but there are so many
solutions for integrating with just the library and not the
itunes software itself.
it was not made to be on touch screens,
and it was not made to to pro distributed audio.
it does in fact do a very limited consumer version of distributed audio.
this is called AirTunes.
AirTunes can be disabled on each device.
in itunes (itunes 9 or similar), goto the preferences panel,
choose devices, and uncheck
"Look for remote speakers connected with AirTunes"
then on the apple tv (3.0)
as a double measure . .
goto settings, AirTunes,
and turn the AirTunes Speaker OFF
these are not difficult things to know,
or research for that matter.
you say you are a programmer and
because of this you feel you dont need to know the products.
you could not be further from the truth . .
knowing and understanding the products
helps you designs better, and troubleshoot as well.
you may not love the apple tv,
but you must embrace itunes.
it will have a place in most jobs you work on,
and i suggest you install it on a computer at home
and get familiar with it . .
understanding current technology,
along with the ability to see what technologies
will be relevant in the future is a very important skill . .
without that, you will be stuck in the old.
i understand that you think (and probably are) very good at what you do,
but it wont last if you are close minded about products. not just apple, but all products.
and on another note,
the point of these forums are to help each other,
not to act like ........ that are better then everyone.
you may have more experience then me in certain areas,
but i the same, have more experience then you in other areas.
im also pretty sure that you dont actually deal with clients.
so code jockey . .
shoot back and enjoy.
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| Post 40 made on Wednesday November 4, 2009 at 15:11 |
rbhfan Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | March 2003
281 |
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I personally don't sell, advocate, program or even touch anything made by apple unless I am charging every step of the way and for every service call that follows. I don't feel the need to champion a company that could care less if I was out of business.
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One thing I have learned in this industry. It is easier to pull a wire than it is to push one. |
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| Post 41 made on Wednesday November 4, 2009 at 18:46 |
Audible Solutions Select Member |
Joined:
Posts: | March 2004
2,116 |
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On November 3, 2009 at 18:16, motech said...
my main point is that you took something,
itunes, and used it in an environment it was not meant for.
That is debatable. Data is data and pulling the data for iTunes off of AppleTv is not what caused the problem. There is somehting called value added. With the right control system and programming you might be very surprised what can be done. IP control of ReplayTV, including ASCII keyboard. Control of Tivo over IP, bidirectional Control of D* IRDs over serial, control, IP control over Homeworks, IP control of Squeezebox, providing control over Pandora, Rapsody, Internet Radio and other value added services.
The key difference here between what many of us are doing is we are using protocols and control systems that are meant to be integrated. AppleTV is using IP protocols where can be "hacked" or viewed may be the better word. It then becomes a matter of employing and deploying this code.
Using RS-485 or IP protocols to go one to many is valid. In fact, had you attempted this approach to getting data to a Homeowrks processor you might have been on to something.
you want to integrate with the itunes library, which is easy to do,
but instead it seems you put the actual itunes on each display.
if you just integrated with the library,
the client would have not had access to the AirTunes Feature.
im not sure what system you are using, but there are so many
solutions for integrating with just the library and not the
itunes software itself.
it was not made to be on touch screens,
and it was not made to to pro distributed audio.
What you've just said is that Apple only natively plays with Apple.
it does in fact do a very limited consumer version of distributed audio.
this is called AirTunes.
AirTunes can be disabled on each device.
in itunes (itunes 9 or similar), goto the preferences panel,
choose devices, and uncheck
"Look for remote speakers connected with AirTunes"
then on the apple tv (3.0)
as a double measure . .
goto settings, AirTunes,
and turn the AirTunes Speaker OFF
these are not difficult things to know,
or research for that matter.
Thank you for the tutorial. I shall file this away. Since every malfunction is an error in code one does need this information.
you say you are a programmer and
because of this you feel you dont need to know the products.
you could not be further from the truth . .
knowing and understanding the products
helps you designs better, and troubleshoot as well.
you may not love the apple tv,
but you must embrace itunes.
it will have a place in most jobs you work on,
and i suggest you install it on a computer at home
and get familiar with it . .
understanding current technology,
along with the ability to see what technologies
will be relevant in the future is a very important skill . .
without that, you will be stuck in the old.
i understand that you think (and probably are) very good at what you do,
but it wont last if you are close minded about products. not just apple, but all products.
and on another note,
the point of these forums are to help each other,
not to act like ........ that are better then everyone.
you may have more experience then me in certain areas,
but i the same, have more experience then you in other areas.
im also pretty sure that you dont actually deal with clients.
so code jockey . .
shoot back and enjoy.
While it is true that the horrid iPod has won the war and that may lead you to think the even worse iTunes also has I think you are very much in error. Request still is selling lost of products and there are tons of other database management/burning software on the market that is easier to integrate.
Squeezebox allows you to integrate iTunes or any music collection. It is by no means certain that iTunes is the only solution.
You pont about understand the products you integrate is valid and I've admitted as such. It does not in any way invalidate my point that Apple products from the point of view of professional integrators are crap--and cheap crap at that.
I beleive the future is not in selling unprofitable s$$t from sh%tty companies like Apple but from manufacturers--even Microsoft ( heaven forbid ) who allow you to ingegrate and provide value. Otherwise sell Sonus and be done. If you cannot get metadata on a touch panel than the product is meaningless. Control of audio sources from a TV is not something I espouse, despite its popularity with C4, Savant and folks like you who swallow the Apple crap.
You believe integration of data is bad because Apple does not sell it. You have no idea how technology works. Scalers were first used in broadcast world and adapted by integrators into their systems. Flat panels and front projectors were originally commercial devices that were used by integrators in homes. A lot of hacks have ended up commercial products, and if you visit the Tivo community you might be surprised what has been done to this box.
There is a big difference between abusing a protocol and misusing it and in taking advantage of it. I don't like Apple products. You do. But are you aware of you net profit and might you care? More importantly, I most certainly have paid attention to your information and I very much appreciate you sharing it. Can you tell the difference between using data in ways the manufacturer did not intend ( but which is valid ) and and trying to shoehorn a solution because you chose the wrong control system? Parsing data is parsing data. A manufacturer may not support my mining this data but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with this. It is supported by the protocol the manufacturer is using. But trying to connect a serial device in 1:many may work but it's bad practice. You may not like this but I did not invent the protocol. I just suggest using smart engineering practices.
Alan
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On the correct side of the Rubicon |
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| Post 42 made on Thursday November 5, 2009 at 19:34 |
motech Select Member |
Joined:
Posts: | August 2008
1,958 |
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this is a good back and forth.
communication works better with out trash talk.
regarding the control system i chose,
that was the control system i knew best at the time.
im still young in the business, and continue to learn more every day.
after nevo i went to URC and now i am using RTI.
im also taking crestron prodigy classes online.
the nevo's happen to be great system controllers,
the company itself is really the issue.
like i said, i do have two way control working very well with this setup.
in regards to sources being meaningless unless they have metadata
on a touch screen - you are right. then again, that doesnt make the device
meaningless in a home.
the apple tv has its place in the home - in the tv rooms.
its just another source, like a dvd player. dont try to use
it for anything more then that and you will be fine.
the device happens to be fantastic at doing what it was meant to do.
that is - to be an extension of itunes.
i charge appropriate setup labor for the apple tv,
and i know them fairly well that i never run in to surprises.
i also have never had one fail on me.
you should not use them on touch panels,
they are not meant for that. plain and simple.
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| Post 43 made on Thursday November 5, 2009 at 21:59 |
Audible Solutions Select Member |
Joined:
Posts: | March 2004
2,116 |
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I did go back to this job today and I made sure Airtunes was turned off. The client now works from home and the odds are you will be buying some of his products and be targeted by others.
His employees almost stormed the Bastille at having lost their precious ability to steam from itunes. I made it clear that their loss was because their meddling with the system cost me time and money. Sure, I'll get at the cause sooner now but honestly, I'd rather not take any calls because his employees "adjusted" a setting in iTunes or AppleTV. I cannot lock out anyone from messing with this and the odds are it will happen again. Even if it takes 5 minutes to explain the solution that's 5 minutes on a Sunday I'd rather have with my kids.
The tech with me went gaga over the upgrade. "It's more like Vudu now," was his comment so he agrees with most of you that this is a huge upgrade. Of course, it may look like Vudu but it still ain't no Vudu. I still hate the POS since I promise you it will cause future service issues. Charge for them? Good luck. Go ahead and send the bill. We'll see how many clients are going to pay it. This client sure will not.
Alan
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On the correct side of the Rubicon |
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