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Changing continuous 12V trigger to pulsed on/off trigger for Proceed Amp 2, 3
This thread has 39 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 30.
Post 16 made on Sunday May 31, 2009 at 22:56
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
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On May 31, 2009 at 21:08, Gizmologist09 said...
Question for you: why do you suppose the manufacturers use pulsed triggers?
Could it have something to do with design efficiency?

Sure. If they have a preamp that outputs control pulses, then it would make sense for an amp to respond to them. This really would take some research to pin down, especially as the preamp and amp could get out of sync.

Second, every RF and wireless remote use a pulse trigger from the microprocessor to cause a flip flip to change from one state to the other.

That's not true. RTI RF remotes send quite complicated codes that initiate an action or a series of actions, and sending the code again causes the same series to be initiated again. If you resend during the sequence, the resend is ignored.

Pronto RF remotes send out entire series of codes, to be received and converted into IR, with no interpreting ability in the receiver. SM Automatic RF drapery remotes send codes that are interpreted by its receiving circuitry as one of many commands, being open, close, or stop (and open followed by open is also stop) for eight zones plus an all-zone command. This is not the same as what you describe, so your "every" is incorrect and you need to examine things more carefully.

You can use an SCR to latch on for a DC load but all it takes is a pulse to gate the SCR on, but you must then break the DC supply to stop conduction.

True! That is a property of the junction, not a property of a remote. I've used audio to trigger Triacs, a variation on SCRs, and the Triac turns off every half cycle until a trigger re-presents. But what you said and what I just said have nothing to do with inherent properties of remotes.

Using a flip flop is faster, cleaner, and allows use of wireless remotes.

We must be defining wireless remotes differently. I don't mean to be catty here -- there's something you're saying, that is true, that doesn't match my world of wireless remotes, so I think you mean something different.

There is no sustained closure with a remote unless it is a old style, discrete component, hardwired pickle switch.

Exactly, but those things we called "wired remotes" in the eighties are pretty much gone, and no longer included in our concepts of remotes.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 17 made on Sunday May 31, 2009 at 23:15
Gizmologist09
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We use power sequencers all the time in pro audio systems. They use a pulse- triggered, clocked decade counter to fire up SS relays or deliver flip flop pulses.

You still aren't seeing that no matter what code stream you use, when you control the operational power of any device by any means aside from a mechanically latched switch, you are using a pulse to activate the circuit.
Post 18 made on Sunday May 31, 2009 at 23:36
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On May 31, 2009 at 23:15, Gizmologist09 said...
We use power sequencers all the time in pro audio systems. They use a pulse- triggered, clocked decade counter to fire up SS relays or deliver flip flop pulses.

Okay.

You still aren't seeing that no matter what code stream you use, when you control the operational power of any device by any means aside from a mechanically latched switch, you are using a pulse to activate the circuit.

That's right. Your only real problem is saying "no matter what" and "any device." What you say is true, but not for all devices and code stream.

A relay connected to a power source is not a mechanially latched switch. I agree that I'm not seeing that when I plug a power transformer into the switched outlet of an AV receiver and use that 12 volts to close a relay, with the voltage from the power supply keeping the relay closed for the entire session, that is not a pulse. Or it IS a pulse, technically, where zero voltage equals logic zero and 12 volts equals logic one, and it's a one bit word, too; but a pulse or word that's as long as the session. For SuperBowl Sunday, then, such a pulse might be ten hours long. But I doubt that's what you mean. If that's what you mean, that's downright silly.

I'm not seeing that when a hex word encoded into IR is sent to a switching IC inside a preamp, that the control is a pulse. Do you call it a pulse if a command is a digital word that defines the next state, the IC assumes that state, and the command then ceases? Since a pulse is ONE voltage up, voltage down, I'd say any digital command that is a sequence of pulses is not a pulse. That sorta sounds obvious, doesn't it? Is it untrue?
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 19 made on Monday June 1, 2009 at 08:34
John Pechulis
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On May 31, 2009 at 21:08, Gizmologist09 said...
Question for you: why do you suppose the manufacturers use pulsed triggers?
Could it have something to do with design efficiency?

Personally, I think it's to give it a unique gimmick, certainly not for efficiency.
Referencing to the definition for efficiency:

efficiency (1): effective operation as measured by a comparison of production with cost (as in energy, time, and money) (2): the ratio of the useful energy delivered by a dynamic system to the energy supplied to it

I can't see how designing a MORE complicated circuit with more materials and costs falls under the category "efficient". In fact, it seems to be "counter-efficient". Now if you're talking about energy effiency, how much would you save by having a pulsed trigger vs. a constant trigger in an all solid state design? I would bet too little to be cost effective. I'm sure the manufacturer is not placing energy efficiency of operation in the customer's home high on their priority list.

Using a flip flop is faster, cleaner, and allows use of wireless remotes.

How would a flip-flop signal be any faster than a constant signal? The properties of how electrons move are the same in any circuit. In fact, you could induce more delay as you add components in a design.

Cleaner how?

And what does this have to do with remotes? We're talking about a trigger signal from a PREAMP to an AMP.

JP
Post 20 made on Monday June 1, 2009 at 18:15
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
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I really would like to hear an explanation of those concepts from Gizmologist09. I mean, his name says he studies gizmos, and he has repeated a couple of statements about controls and control signals. I seriously would like him to read my posts and explain his concepts to me. As I said before a little differently, he seems to be so wrong that he must be talking about something that I'm not talking about (and apparently not others who have responded to him).

So, please, let's have some gizmological explication, and don't forget the gizmographs!
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 21 made on Wednesday June 3, 2009 at 03:45
Gizmologist09
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That sequence of pulses identifies the circuit to be controlled. The last stage in a power up/down sequence or select sequence for track, channel, disc, drapes open/close, lights up/down etc. device select is the output of the discriminator circuitry that takes the data stream and directs the switching of a given function through a microprocessor.

But every output from a remote control or power up/down command is a short duration pulse that tells the switching circuit to energize and then de-energize.
Post 22 made on Wednesday June 3, 2009 at 05:15
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
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I think your thinking is fuzzy. You are saying that a series of pulses is a pulse. By that logic this entire website is one word, or maybe one letter.

No, EVERY output from a remote control or power up/down command IS NOT a short duration pulse that tells the switching circuit to energize and de-energize. SOME ARE, it's true.

But you mentioned wired remotes. A switch on a wire, remote from the device, can turn on a constant DC voltage that closes a relay. This is NOT a pulse, and the switching circuit -- the relay -- is not de-energized.

To me it seems that you're combining things that shouldn't be combined, and calling them all the same -- such as my relay circuit and ALL other control setups.

I know what -- you've said EVERY. Please give an example of A PULSE, that is, one single rise and fall of voltage, that tells the switching circuit to energize AND de-energize.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 23 made on Wednesday June 3, 2009 at 12:23
Gizmologist09
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OK this is pretty simple. Whatever button you press, a coded data stream or burst is created and transmitted to a discriminator that takes the info of that datastream or burst and says "If I get this command I will tell the CD player to select the next disc". The triggering of the change mechanism is a short duration pulse to activate a latch circuit etc. just te same as momentarily pushing the from panel button.

A touchtone phone pad generates a 2 tome pulse that is identified by a discriminator and says the if these 2 tones are read simultaneously, "I will turn this particular circuit."

By definition, a pulse is a sort duration change of state of some sort of switching or generating device.

The keyboard you are sitting at is using a matrix connection under the keys to generate ASCII codes when you MOMENTARILY depress a key. That is a short duration pulse. If you hit CNTRL B you toggle the screen on or off in Powerpoint. The same holds true from power switching. Unless there is a toggle, rocker, or rotary switch in the primary supply of a device, any non latching mechanical control (push button etc) remote data stream, etc is delivering a MOMENTARY "PULSE" to trigger the device to goggle on or off.
Post 24 made on Wednesday June 3, 2009 at 12:46
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
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On June 3, 2009 at 12:23, Gizmologist09 said...
OK this is pretty simple.

Agreed.
Whatever button you press, a coded data stream or burst is created and transmitted to a discriminator that takes the info of that datastream or burst and says "If I get this command I will tell the CD player to select the next disc".
Not true. If I push a mechanically latching push-on push-off switch to turn on a relay, there is no coded data stream.

The triggering of the change mechanism is a short duration pulse to activate a latch circuit etc. just te same as momentarily pushing the from panel button.

Like I said above.
A touchtone phone pad generates a 2 tone pulse that is identified by a discriminator and says the if these 2 tones are read simultaneously, "I will turn this particular circuit."

That's true, except that a touchtone phone pad generates a 2 tonse series of pulses, not a pulse. It just occurred to me that a person's pulse due to heart beats is a repeating pulse, not a single change from no pressure to pressure to no pressure. Obviously you and I are both missing the fact that "pulse" has more than one definition.

By definition, a pulse is a short duration change of state of some sort of switching or generating device.

As I said, there's more than one definition. But by this definition, a telephone touchtone control signal is not A pulse but A SERIES of pulses.

The keyboard you are sitting at is using a matrix connection under the keys to generate ASCII codes when you MOMENTARILY depress a key. That is a short duration pulse. If you hit CNTRL B you toggle the screen on or off in Powerpoint. The same holds true from power switching. Unless there is a toggle, rocker, or rotary switch in the primary supply of a device, any non latching mechanical control (push button etc) remote data stream, etc is delivering a MOMENTARY "PULSE" to trigger the device to goggle on or off.

This is a good example of your point, modified to "it can be" rather than "all are."

If you look back, you'll see that I've said several times that your error here is in saying ALL and EVERY. This last paragraph has an "unless" in it. If you say ALL and EVERY, and you're not overlooking things, there will be no UNLESSes.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 25 made on Wednesday June 3, 2009 at 15:12
Gizmologist09
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Sorry to disagree, but A DTMF tone is only 2 tones transmitted simultaneously. The discrimination circuitry identifies those 2 tones on a matrix, just like a keyboard. The pulse duration is the amount of time you leave your finger on the button.

We have thousands of devices that use a clean burst or pulse of .001 seconds or more that is bounce free, unlike any mechanical switch.

Any device where you push a momentary, non mechanically latching button once to turn it on and again to turn it off is generating a pulse to trigger the power circuitry.

The definition of pulse is NOT a sustained switch closure. Look at most any entertainment device INCLUDING any remote. (the original thread start) Do you push and HOLD any power button on any remote to energize the device you are controlling for the entire time you want to use it? No. You press the button or the touchscreen and a microprocessor or similar circuit generate a short duration pulse to cause a flip flop or similar circuit to change state. That devices then causes the triac, transistor or SCR to conduct. A second pulse from the same button will repeat the process and de energize the system.

If you like I can post a simple but very common circuit that does this. The main reason these are so common is that a single microprocessor can accept so much data from buttons, sensors, timers etc all at logic levels and react extremely fast and reliably.

Why use a relay with high current draw and noisy contacts when a surface mount transistor can perform longer, faster cheaper and much smaller smaller?
Post 26 made on Wednesday June 3, 2009 at 21:19
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On June 3, 2009 at 12:23, Gizmologist09 said...
A touchtone phone pad generates a 2 tome pulse that is identified by a discriminator and says the if these 2 tones are read simultaneously, "I will turn this particular circuit."

On June 3, 2009 at 12:46, Ernie Bornn-Gilman said...
That's true, except that a touchtone phone pad generates a 2 tonse series of pulses, not a pulse. [I meant "2 tone," not "2 tones," and definitely not "2 tonse"]

On June 3, 2009 at 15:12, Gizmologist09 said...
Sorry to disagree, but A DTMF tone is only 2 tones transmitted simultaneously. The discrimination circuitry identifies those 2 tones on a matrix, just like a keyboard. The pulse duration is the amount of time you leave your finger on the button.

Who are you arguing with here? You say a touchtone pad generates a 2 tome [tone] pulse, I say it's a series of pulses, then you disagree with yourself, saying it's "only 2 tones"!

Why use a relay with high current draw and noisy contacts when a surface mount transistor can perform longer, faster cheaper and much smaller smaller?

I already answered this. Is is decidedly NOT cheaper for me to fabricate ONE solid state control device than to solder some wires to a relay, even if it's mounted on a board and mounted inside a box. It never occurred to me that you meant an SMT device. I'd have to buy the hardware to build ONE, and that would cost even more. Agreed, an SMT 555 circuit would cost less than a relay circuit, especially if you're doing a thousand of them. But the question answered was about doing ONE or a small quantity.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 27 made on Wednesday June 3, 2009 at 23:44
Gizmologist09
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1209 Hz 1336 Hz 1477 Hz1633 Hz
697 Hz1 2 3 A
770 Hz4 5 6 B
852 Hz7 8 9 C
941 Hz* 0 # D

This is the DTMF tone matrix. These tones are combined in pairs simultaneously to indicate a single digit or character. Similar encoding concept are used in hex and binary encoding. A,B,C,and D plus the digits and symbols represent the full DTMF matrix. These characters are used frequently in ham etc radio remote control of telepatches etc.

ALL the wireless remotes use encoded data streams that end up being decoded in the on board microprocessor of whatever device you are controlling. The control output legs of the microprocessor send single short duration trigger pulses at logic level or low DC voltages (biasing) to whatever device is controlling power applied to a particular circuit.
Post 28 made on Thursday June 4, 2009 at 07:49
John Pechulis
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Just how did we go so far off the original topic?

JP
Post 29 made on Thursday June 4, 2009 at 11:20
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
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It's my fault for arguing a small point. I'd already decided to stop.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 30 made on Thursday June 4, 2009 at 12:20
Gizmologist09
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I am done with this as well as you do not understand the concept or definition of "pulse", "discriminator", "series", "flip/flops",or anything having to do with data streams and how they are generated or decoded or the final output configuration of the microprocessor to energize any given circuit or device.

You really should look past the most basic operation of the remotes you use to learn HOW they function before arguing with someone who designs control circuitry.
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