Your Universal Remote Control Center
RemoteCentral.com
Custom Installers' Lounge Forum - View Post
Previous section Next section Up level
Up level
The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:

Login:
Pass:
 
 

Topic:
Adding Subwoofer to 70 volt system
This thread has 9 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Tuesday May 5, 2009 at 01:23
DIRTE
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2005
482
I have a sports bar with a Bogen PM3000 and I want to add some subwoofers to the system. Can I take the full range output from the Bogen piece and split it off to a subwoofer? The subs Im going to use are the Chrysalis Starfire 12's; one for two of the three audio zones. Will the crossover on the sub filter the unwanted higher frequencies or should I quote some sort of EQ? Thanks...
"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed with the things you didn't do than by the things you did… Explore. Dream. Discover" Mark Twain, 1879
Post 2 made on Tuesday May 5, 2009 at 01:28
Mr. Stanley
Elite Member
Joined:
Posts:
January 2006
14,933
Paging Fred Harding!
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 3 made on Tuesday May 5, 2009 at 01:45
WhiteVan Lifestyle
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
July 2007
4,896
I love the Velodyne Chrysalis series. Why the Starfire over the Photon?
Money?
I agree that giving my favorite distributor a call will guide you in the right direction.
Safe 'n Sound Central Coast CA www.mysafensound.com [Link: facebook.com]
Post 4 made on Tuesday May 5, 2009 at 02:58
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
Joined:
Posts:
December 2001
23,057
You shold be using 70 volt product in your 70 volt system. I don't know why that even needs to be said. Did you think there aren't any 70 volt subs?

We have a GREAT system in a wine bar/restaurant with some JBL Control speakers and a couple of Control subwoofers. Sorry; I don't know the model numbers as I only worked on, not sourced, the system. But the subs are a bit larger than and the same shape as the main speakers. Crossovers are built in. Like, voila, it's done!

We also have some others in a large bar -- two inwall subs, six speakers -- in a ceiling above a bar area about 40 x 60. It totally kicks, and the input to the sub is just another 70 volt speaker wire.

Meanwhile, if you're using a sub designed for consumer use, you'll likely have hum problems, and you'll be dealing with signal levels much higher than those in a consumer system. In a home system, if you had a 100 watt amp and you turned it up so it put out 100 watts (into 8 ohms), you'd have 28.28 volts. If you've got a 100 watt 70 volt amp, 100 watts will be seventy volts. Just be sure your sub is ready for that voltage level on its input.
We can't give you a good answer, or maybe any, without the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 5 made on Tuesday May 5, 2009 at 12:08
Other
Active Member
Joined:
Posts:
March 2007
685
The important piece of info here is in the rest of the system. What are the amps & speakers, tap settings, available headroom, etc.

If there is a lot of headroom left on the amps, then yes, 70V subs would be an easy option (using the crossover in the subs).

I would not run a 70V speaker level input into a consumer subwoofer and try to use it's crossover. As stated above, it's a huge difference in voltage. You'll be more likely to get smoke coming from the sub than sound.

You could use a line level crossover integrated in a consumer sub, but you will never really have proper gain structure as you are still mixing voltages and risking overdriving the crossover input to then underdrive the amp input. You are also specifying a piece of gear while it may be a great option for what it is intended is in no way, shape, or form designed to run 12+ hours per day every day.

I don't think the issue is so much mixing 70V and direct connect in this system as it is mixing pro and consumer gear.

That being said, if you have headroom, Bogen makes a 70V in-ceiling sub (CSUB). It's an 8", though, so it's probably not going to give the low end you are looking for. Ditto the JBL Control 19CS or 19CST. They are more used for supplementing real small ceiling speakers. Take a look at the Control 300 series and now you are talking. A Control 312CS is a pro 12" architectural sub with an available backbox and it will get some air moving. There is an accessory transformer available (MTC300T150), but its a 150W transformer as these things do need some power. Unless the original designer was really planning ahead, it's not real likely that you have 150W plus of amplification headroom. At that point it's probably more cost effective not to use 70V subs.

If this was a start from scratch system design, I'd be pointing you towards DBX ZonePro rather than the Bogen piece. It will do what the Bogen is doing for you plus give you the extra processing that you may have not known you needed up front, but now do. See, method to the madness. ;)

It still might not be a bad idea, but a good bet to get the DSP processing of the ZonePro without the routing, mixing, pre-amps, control, etc. would be to look towards the DriveRack series. They are all good products. While they are not necessarily designed for it, the PA and PX work just fine in fixed installations. You just won't have the preset EQ curve for the install-oriented speakers. This will serve as your crossover, EQ, Delay, etc. They also have sub harmonic synthesizers to really boost the lows, auto RTA to give you a head start ringing out the room, etc.

Assuming the Bogen stays, take it's output and feed it to the DriveRack, take the high pass output of the Drive Rack and feed it back to the existing amplifier & speakers. Take the low-pass/sub output of the DriveRack and feed it to a new amplifier and subs. Again, I don't really care if it's 70V. For architectural stuff the Control 12CS is a nice piece (with backbox). An XLS-series amp pushes a lot of power for short money. If you want to go 70V then add the transformer and go up to like a CTs series amp. That won't really gain you much unless it's a really long speaker run or a lot of subs per channel.

If you are using box speakers and prefer powered subs, the JBL EON sub is a pretty decent pro sub in a configuration that may feel a little more familiar to you. Just feed it from the sub output of the DriveRack or you can use the line level loop through (not speaker level) you asked about above and put it in between the ouput of the bogen and input of the exist amp(s) like you are suggesting above. The difference is that this is a balanced pro line level loop-through.

The EON SUBG2 is a 15" 250W powered sub with loop-through and they recently released a big brother EON 518S 18" 500W powered sub with stereo line level loop-through. Either of this will fit into the system like you are used to but be a lot more appropriate to the job.
Post 6 made on Tuesday May 5, 2009 at 21:14
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
Joined:
Posts:
December 2001
23,057
On May 5, 2009 at 12:08, Other said...
I would not run a 70V speaker level input into a consumer subwoofer and try to use it's crossover. As stated above, it's a huge difference in voltage. You'll be more likely to get smoke coming from the sub than sound.

I disagree. The line input on a sub is like the line input on most other devices, probably around 10K ohms, and that much voltage won't make it smoke. But since you often get great bass with the volume set to only about 9 o'clock, or three on the scale, a higher input voltage means you'll be at full rip at less than one. That makes it real hard to adjust the volume.
...while it may be a great option for what it is intended is in no way, shape, or form designed to run 12+ hours per day every day.

Good point!
If this was a start from scratch system design, I'd be pointing you towards DBX ZonePro rather than the Bogen piece. It will do what the Bogen is doing for you plus give you the extra processing that you may have not known you needed up front, but now do. See, method to the madness. ;)

You just made my point -- use 70 volt gear for 70 volt applications. Use consumer gear in home applications. Plus the EQ on the ZonePro is quite incredible.
We can't give you a good answer, or maybe any, without the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 7 made on Wednesday May 6, 2009 at 00:35
Gene S.
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
March 2008
187
I use the ZonePro in health clubs and it works really good. Driven 24/5(days a week).
-G.
OP | Post 8 made on Wednesday May 6, 2009 at 10:06
DIRTE
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2005
482
I have used the Zonepro and agree that its an awesome piece but I was hoping to use the IR control on the Bogen piece to save the money and keep from having to spec an RTI RP6. Im doing this as a favor for one of our biggest lead sources. He wants to stay as cheap as possible. As far as the subs go I normally spec JBL SB2's or SB210's but again I was trying to be cheap and use the line level out from the Bogen preamp (not the high level from the amplifiers) to feed the signal to the amplifiers on board the Chrysalis Subs. I didnt think about the possible audio hum but now that EBG brought it up he has me thinking that will be a definite.

Have any of you used the Atlas Sound SM8Sub's? If so, what did you think of them and what other 70v subs have you used that you liked? Thanks for your input! Dave
"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed with the things you didn't do than by the things you did… Explore. Dream. Discover" Mark Twain, 1879
Post 9 made on Wednesday May 6, 2009 at 10:53
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
Joined:
Posts:
December 2001
23,057
Why do people say "as cheap as possible" and then want subs? "As cheap as possible" is a few sets of little speakers bought from several Salvation Army stores, wired in series/parallel, and guaranteed to work until the first bass transient. "Subwoofer" does NOT belong in "as cheap as possible."

DIRTE: That's an interesting quote you have there at the end. I didn't know Old Sam had these things on his mind:
"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed with the thongs you didn't do than by the thongs you did… Explore. Dream. Discover" Mark Twain, 1879
We can't give you a good answer, or maybe any, without the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 10 made on Thursday May 7, 2009 at 13:09
Other
Active Member
Joined:
Posts:
March 2007
685
A JBL EONSUBG2 isn't really that much more than a Chrysalis 12.

I'm still not seeing why this has to be 70V. ZonePro is a preamp processor. It doesn't really care what is after it.


Jump to


Protected Feature Before you can reply to a message...
You must first register for a Remote Central user account - it's fast and free! Or, if you already have an account, please login now.

Please read the following: Unsolicited commercial advertisements are absolutely not permitted on this forum. Other private buy & sell messages should be posted to our Marketplace. For information on how to advertise your service or product click here. Remote Central reserves the right to remove or modify any post that is deemed inappropriate.

Hosting Services by ipHouse