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Topic:
Who owns the program when the project is done?
This thread has 305 replies. Displaying posts 61 through 75.
OP | Post 61 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:27
juliejacobson
CE Pro Magazine
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:20, ceied said...
how does not having the source code and files make all
your equipment worthless?

Are you kidding me? Without the source code, you have to start from scratch. Your video switcher craps out? The $50k in programming you already spent is out the window, and your system and everything connected to it is worthless. ... until you can find a new dealer and start all over again.

I am wearing my consumer hat.

Convince me that that is a gamble worth taking.
"CEPro: your website sucks!" - Fins
www.cepro.com
[Link: twitter.com]
OP | Post 62 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:30
juliejacobson
CE Pro Magazine
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:27, SnapProductions said...
But I do not think that the home owners should be able
to give a custom GUI to the competition. And with some
exceptions I am sure very few clients actually pay for
the FULL cost of the GUI design.

I'm not talking about the GUI or the aesthetics. I'm just talking about getting stuff to work -- so when a DVD player fails, you don't need to pay a new dealer 10s of thousands of dollars to reprogram every macro, driver, and other programming element.
"CEPro: your website sucks!" - Fins
www.cepro.com
[Link: twitter.com]
Post 63 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:32
ceied
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:27, juliejacobson said...
Are you kidding me? Without the source code, you have
to start from scratch. Your video switcher craps out?
The $50k in programming you already spent is out the window,
and your system and everything connected to it is worthless.
... until you can find a new dealer and start all over
again.

I am wearing my consumer hat.

Convince me that that is a gamble worth taking.

no i am not kidding. its a moot point if my switcher fails. replace it with the exact one.
if the ecm on my truck craps out. do i get the source code to make my own ecm? no i have to pay chevrolet 3000 bucks (or whatever it costs now) for a new ecm. when i can fix or make my own for pennies on the dollar.

and by the time there is a failure new technology will be available and make the old obsolete anyways.

customer pays 100 grand every year or other year for a new mercedes or porche for the garage.... whats a 50 grand every 5 or 6 years when equipment fails?
Ed will be known as the Tiger Woods of the integration business, followed closely with the renaming of his company to "Hotties A/V". The tag line will be "We like big racks and tight holes"...
Post 64 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:33
SnapProductions
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:30, juliejacobson said...
I'm not talking about the GUI or the aesthetics. I'm just
talking about getting stuff to work -- so when a DVD player
fails, you don't need to pay a new dealer 10s of thousands
of dollars to reprogram every macro, driver, and other
programming element.

Is there a way that you can separate the 2?

Too me that would be the issue.

Like I said Julie I do not have a dog in this fight, but I can see where the GUI swap would piss me off as a owner.
"Everything will be ok in the end, if it's not ok, then it's not the end."
Post 65 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:34
Moe's original BBQ
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:30, juliejacobson said...
I'm not talking about the GUI or the aesthetics. I'm just
talking about getting stuff to work -- so when a DVD player
fails, you don't need to pay a new dealer 10s of thousands
of dollars to reprogram every macro, driver, and other
programming element.

So you have the source code and your ability to add a DVR page is unaffected how? You can't pick and choose your argument here.
OP | Post 66 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:40
juliejacobson
CE Pro Magazine
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:33, SnapProductions said...
Is there a way that you can separate the 2?

Too me that would be the issue.

I would like to know that.
"CEPro: your website sucks!" - Fins
www.cepro.com
[Link: twitter.com]
Post 67 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:44
Moe's original BBQ
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I don't see how the 2 could be separated with AMX or Crestron.
Post 68 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:47
Moe's original BBQ
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:44, Moe's original BBQ said...
I don't see how the 2 could be separated with AMX or Crestron.

With this being said, I do give the code to my customers, but not typically the TP file unless it is stock graphics.
Post 69 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:49
ds53652
Long Time Member
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207
Actually, this whole thread should have us CIs focusing on this really critical issue. And it's actually the opposite of what Julie clearly feels.

We as CIs, need to be protecting our software/coding/GUIs, etc. The majority of us are cleary not (myself included). We should be licensing this stuff just like MS, Apple, etc does.

Same goes for our knowledge......even this whole website is becoming more and more of a risk to the CI industry as a whole in my opinion.....

Flame away....
Post 70 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:51
Theaterworks
Founding Member
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Julie, who has replaced you at CE Pro?
Carpe diem!
Post 71 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:54
clear33765
Long Time Member
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75
On January 28, 2009 at 00:29, tsvisser said...
I think there is absolutely no question, a programmer
that is employed by a company is working for that company
and 100% of what is coded is property of the company.
To take that code and use it outside of company use would
in fact be theft. Obviously the contents of someone's
head is property of that person, so having gained expertise
in programming is not owned by the company, but physical
or electronic property that was developed is not the property
of the employee.

I am not a custom installer, but I am a programmer who deals with signing corp-to-corp, sub-contractor, W2 contracts all the time. Here is a direct excerpt of a contract I have...

Article 5 - Ownership of Developments

5.1????? and Contractor agree that all codes, developments, designs, discoveries, ideas, improvements, processes, programs, systems, trademarks, service marks, writings, creations, enhancements, improvements or other inventions, whatsoever, which have been or shall be made, developed, conceived or reduced to practice or writing by Contractor, either alone or with others, (i) at any time during Contractor's engagement by ????? or (ii) within one year following the termination or completion of such engagement, whichever is later, and other things or materials developed by Contractor in fulfillment of the Services (Inventions) shall be considered to be "works made for hire," and that they and the patents, copyrights, trade secrets and other intangible property rights therein shall become the sole and exclusive property of ?????, subject to ?????'s obligations to Company under the Contract, if they are part of, relate to or are usable with:

(a)the Services;
(b)Contractor's engagement by ?????;
(c)any work or development project then being undertaken by ????? or Company;
(d)the business and affairs of ????? or Company;
(e)embody Confidential Information of ????? or Company
(f)any process, apparatus or article useful in the development, manufacture, testing or operation paragraphs (a) through (e).

I agree with most that this is a legal matter and you should consult an attorney. In every contract I sign, ownership of what I create is CLEARLY defined. You can call it code, modules, one line of code, executables... it doesn't matter, in the case above, it all belongs to the client.

I have in the past done business as a partnership where both the client and I own what is created and each of us can do what we wanted to do with it. In this case, a client is usually trying to get my services at a discount knowing that I will also make money on reselling what I created.

The problem sounds like contract agreements that do not clearly define ownership. It can be written both ways, 1. where the clients owns what you created while employed by them or 2. the client merely licenses the software you wrote for him to use. Whichever side of the fence you belong on, your contract should clearly define the terms.

If you are using pre-written modules that you coded well before employment of said client, I would make sure that any contract you sign clearly states that you retain ownership of your modules used.
Post 72 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:54
stereoman4
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:03, juliejacobson said...
shnakz - so you would tell your customers: If I go out
of business all of your gear is worthless?

if anyone goes out of business, who says the equipment is going to fail? Does going out of business constitute the equipment being disabled??
www.goinnovativeaudiovisual.com
Cedia certified installer
ISF Certified 'It's not how many times you get knocked down but it's how many times you get back up and go forward"
OP | Post 73 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:56
juliejacobson
CE Pro Magazine
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:51, Theaterworks said...
Julie, who has replaced you at CE Pro?

No one. Just doing double-duty now, as we all are these days. Still just as committed to CE Pro as always, but need to be a consumer advocate as well.
"CEPro: your website sucks!" - Fins
www.cepro.com
[Link: twitter.com]
Post 74 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 11:04
rbhfan
Active Member
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I guess my stance on it would be although it is intellectual property you were paid to provide it. Although I have yet to run into this circumstance involving higher end programming systems, I did have one nevo customer who was animate about having the software so he could go in and "fiddle" with the programming. I was happy to hand the disc to him because it was an accessory to an item he purchased, but was quick to let him know that this system is running perfectly and the remote is operating flawlessly. Any "fiddling" that changed that would result in an hourly programming charge to right the programming.

As far as a larger Crestron/AMX type system I would explain to a customer how much time and research and programming goes into such a system and if they would liek to purchase the rights to that particular system then they would be able to. Custom made databases, modules, macros ect are tools of your trade and asking for them for free is no different then asking a mechanic to leave his timing light in the front seat after a tune up in case you wanted to make future adjustments to your vehicle.

As far as what customers are left with when the dealer goes out of business I guess that is one more thing to think about when Joe "I work out of my van and live where the wind blows me" installer under quotes a reputable installation firm that has years of stability behind them.

Someone earlier hit the nail on the head when they mentioned Windows from Microsoft. When you purchase a new HP pavillion with Vista on it and 2 years later the MB craps out on you. Unless your system came with a windows disc you will be purchasing a new license to use windows on your upgraded machine.

Last edited by rbhfan on January 28, 2009 11:14.
One thing I have learned in this industry. It is easier to pull a wire than it is to push one.
Post 75 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 11:11
stereoman4
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I don't know about amx or crestron...but in order to get the code and be able to do anything with RTI you would have to provide the software which is copyrighted to dealers only....what happens if they change equipment? Do we send them to training so they can update their system...That is what harmony is for...life is about risks and if you are not willing to gamble on your CI use one of the systems so you can do it yourself....but will never get the same functionality....that is why the consumers have a choice, you are not bound to buy the crestron system, you are not bound to buy the ferarri over the ford, but if you do you know that the maintance costs will be significantly higher.
www.goinnovativeaudiovisual.com
Cedia certified installer
ISF Certified 'It's not how many times you get knocked down but it's how many times you get back up and go forward"
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