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Topic:
Who owns the program when the project is done?
This thread has 305 replies. Displaying posts 46 through 60.
OP | Post 46 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 09:11
juliejacobson
CE Pro Magazine
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On January 28, 2009 at 09:09, Rob Grabon said...
The article should stay focused on informing the users
they should discuss with their CI the issue of code licensing.

Absolutely, that's the point, to raise awareness among consumers about this important issue.

I am searching for some legal precedent on this issue.
"CEPro: your website sucks!" - Fins
www.cepro.com
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Post 47 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 09:18
roddymcg
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Several people have mentioned when there is a balance due as a reason not to release code. This is an of course... We do not release anything until the balance is paid for, and the client does not get update until those changes are paid for.
When good enough is not good enough.
Post 48 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 09:46
cma
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On January 28, 2009 at 09:00, juliejacobson said...
Or, you can get control4, Lifeware, Homelogic, etc. It's
not AMX or Crestron but if something happens to your dealer,
ANYONE can reprogram your system.

What would a consumer do?

What if there is an issue with a piece of equipment? If a HomeLogic or Control4 processor becomes corrupted or down right fails and the original company isn't around who has the code to get it up and running again as it was originally installed?
Post 49 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 09:56
sirroundsound
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A point that hasn't been mentioned.
A company enters into an agreement to sell AMX or Crestron or whatever control product. I think you do so knowing the complexity of what your getting yourself into and the time and effort that will be required to be a good dealer of the products.
Creating "code" or modules is all part of that. The reason you create these is to hopefully have something you can sell over and over again, thus making future projects easier to set up. I don't know too many companies that start to charge less for the programming of systems. As Alan stated, all the time and effort gets paid off over many projects. Yet to the client they are still paying a conciderable amount to have their system "programmed". I am sure a large portion of the bill is for actual used time, and hopefully another part is for the modules.
All the talk about Dell or MS doesn't apply here. These are not people going to BB and paying 129.00 for the latest version of MS anything. If something did go wrong with their software, it's cheap, they can go out and buy another copy just about anywhere and be back up and running.
In our case they were "sold" a bunch of stuff to be their control system. They were "sold" a bunch of ideas of what the control system can and will do for them, based on what your programmer is capable of. What I am sure many were not "sold" was the idea that if something goes wrong or needs changing in the future, it cannot be done by any other dealer than you because no one else would be able to access the "code".
I appreciate that a lot of time and effort goes into creating working systems, but as a Creston or other programmer you are not creating something that no one else in the world could not have come up with. Your not painting the next Mona Lisa, your making stuff work, based on what was sold to the client. You didn't create the Creston or other programming enviroment, it was supplied to you as a dealer, and you are manipulating it based on the system to be controlled.
The control of a piece of equipment in your system isn't going to be different from someone else. The Play function for brand X DVD player is the Play function and either the IR or RS232 command will be the same in your system as it will in someone elses.
If you have to write a module for something that has never been controlled before, maybe your company should have thought about that before selling it, or if it was a request by the client, let him know that it needs a custom module and will cost $1000's to build.
Personnally I think Crestron and AMX should register clients and the dealers supply the needed code to them. This way clients have a safeguard against dealers going out of business.

Post 50 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:01
shnakz69
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Seems to me that most of the ppl that are pro about giving clients all the code are typically those who program URC, RTI, Pronto and the like, which really. in all honesty require NO SKILL to program, juat a little common sence, where as the AMX Netlinx and Crestrons SMPL+ are both actual languages and proprietary at that which take quite a bit more skill then ALL the rest. Sure they have thier built in data bases and cookie cutter modules and User friendly UIs for the Non-programmer, but we do completely custom systems graphics and all, i have spend countless hours developing and field testing.
Julie's "article" will have no effect on our business practices and if the shoe was on the other foot and she was a certified, trained and professional programmer.. and i DONT mean URC, RTI. etc i think here opinion would be different, BUT it does make for a good article doesnt it!
Post 51 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:03
Spyeguy
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I don't buy any of these "I own my Modules" defenses. Get over yourself. There is a whole brave new world of open source development. The days of code based Intellectual property is slowly diminishing.

That said, if a client has contracted for a project I would not give them anything until they have paid in full. In fact, we present the code to the client, as part of their system information packet at the time of training. Training doesn't take place until full payment has been received. This is all explained to them ahead of time.
OP | Post 52 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:03
juliejacobson
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shnakz - so you would tell your customers: If I go out of business all of your gear is worthless?
"CEPro: your website sucks!" - Fins
www.cepro.com
[Link: twitter.com]
Post 53 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:09
Moe's original BBQ
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There is another aspect to take into consideration here. Custom touch panel files and graphics.
For this example lets use a TP using a GUIFX design. How do you handle a different company extracting the TP files and re-using them without paying for the graphic sets? What about companies that spend tremendous amounts of time developing custom graphic sets?

I don't make TP designs available unless a client pays for the development time for a specific graphics set. While I think this is less prevalent now than it was 5 years ago, it can still be an issue.

I think people should be aware of what their contract includes and what source if any they will have at the end of a project, but I don't see the need to set it out as a generalized scare or warning.

Fear Mongering in the AV media world would create an unnecessary panic, but a little enlightenment for consumers may not be a bad thing.
Post 54 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:15
ILO
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Regarding Crestron and AMX, after payment in full, the customer should be given the compiled code for backup purposes by default.

Crestron and AMX source code is proprietary because of the way it is created. The customer should be given the option to purchase this proprietary source code at a fair market value.

It is the dealers that do not present this to customers upfront that give our industry a black eye.
OP | Post 55 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:15
juliejacobson
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:03, Spyeguy said...
I don't buy any of these "I own my Modules" defenses.
Get over yourself. There is a whole brave new world of
open source development. The days of code based Intellectual
property is slowly diminishing.

That said, if a client has contracted for a project I
would not give them anything until they have paid in full.
In fact, we present the code to the client, as part of
their system information packet at the time of training.
Training doesn't take place until full payment has been
received. This is all explained to them ahead of time.

Wise words from a local guy. YOu're in the Twin Cities? I'm in Stillwater. Maybe we had this conversation already.
"CEPro: your website sucks!" - Fins
www.cepro.com
[Link: twitter.com]
Post 56 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:16
Theaterworks
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Julie, you should include discussion on a software escrow arrangement between the client and the programmer if you're going to be complete on this. I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this in this thread.

The client asks for and pays for an escrow to be set up for the software. The programmer agrees to keep the escrow upload current with his work. The pair come to an agreement on when the client has access to the escrow area; when the job is paid, when the programmer fails to respond to service requests, whatever is fair for both parties.

If you're moving to being a consumer advocate then you need to be a smart one. :-)
Carpe diem!
Post 57 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:19
cma
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:15, juliejacobson said...
Wise words from a local guy. YOu're in the Twin Cities?
I'm in Stillwater. Maybe we had this conversation already.

Some of these comments should be taken with a grain of salt regarding are they coming from employees of the said company or are they opinions coming from a company manager or owner. It isn't surprising to hear from an employee of a company who may or may not have any relevant info on the inner workings, business plan or real numbers on anything, that the customer should get everything and from an owner or manager that they should be limited.
Post 58 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:20
ceied
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:03, juliejacobson said...
shnakz - so you would tell your customers: If I go out
of business all of your gear is worthless?

how does not having the source code and files make all your equipment worthless?

On January 28, 2009 at 09:11, juliejacobson said...
Absolutely, that's the point, to raise awareness among
consumers about this important issue.

I am searching for some legal precedent on this issue.

Honestly I think you need to say nothing until you consult a lawyer that deals with software. Otherwise you are doing a disservice to the customer and the dealer.

I will make an absurd analogy.....

i say abortion is legal.... you say abortion is illegal.... its a moot point what does the law say?

just because you feel abortion is illegal does not make it so...
because i feel abortion is legal does not make it so....

i think abortion is wrong, but it is legal.

nothing worse than giving emotion or feelings as fact. everyone looses.
Ed will be known as the Tiger Woods of the integration business, followed closely with the renaming of his company to "Hotties A/V". The tag line will be "We like big racks and tight holes"...
OP | Post 59 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:20
juliejacobson
CE Pro Magazine
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On January 28, 2009 at 10:16, Theaterworks said...
Julie, you should include discussion on a software escrow
arrangement between the client and the programmer if you're
going to be complete on this. I'm surprised no one else
has mentioned this in this thread.

I mentioned it twice, I think. We did an article on it a long time ago. I think it is definitely the way to go.
"CEPro: your website sucks!" - Fins
www.cepro.com
[Link: twitter.com]
Post 60 made on Wednesday January 28, 2009 at 10:27
SnapProductions
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Wow this is a tough one.......

Julie it would not be fair to the CI if I paid say "Super GUI Design Firm" thousands of bucks to buy these awesome graphics for my TP.

Only to have them given to my competitors because they choose to have him fix the system in place of me.

Or what ever the case maybe. So now the mass amounts of cash that I invested to make my touch panels the bomb, has just been freely given to my competitors all because of the... "I am the home owner I paid for it?" I really do not think that is fair, and while you may edcuate your clients so to speak......

You are going to get a lot of people who's GUI looked like they were done in MS paint by a 5 year old... to

[Link: crestron.com]

I see your point about the whole code, and the macros and stuff....

But I do not think that the home owners should be able to give a custom GUI to the competition. And with some exceptions I am sure very few clients actually pay for the FULL cost of the GUI design.

NOW.... if they said, "I want my own CUSTOM GUI" and they footed the bill to have it made.... by all means they should have it. But otherwise I think it is unfair to the CI firm that spent all that money making their GUI look pretty, only to give it away to the competition.

PS: I do not have a dog in this fight, as my GUI has a big red 4 in the middle.
"Everything will be ok in the end, if it's not ok, then it's not the end."
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