Yes, it is unreasonable. You cannot demand a full code set for every type of project that involves programming. That's like going to a restaurant and demanding to have the recipe with your dinner.

YES!

That is just ludicrous, and I am not certain you really understand what you are saying here. A seasoned Crestron programmer has spent years developing modules and code and who are you to "educate" people on something you dont fully understand? You cant simply expect anyone to just give away code, nor are you doing anyone a favor by even eluding to this. And in complex systems it may be impossible to put a price on code that includes custom graphics and code. It can literally take hundreds of hours of developement and debugging to get a module stable and sometimes it takes many projects of implementation to even just break even. This is beside the fact that in a complex system you need more then just source code to make any major changes. There are also many firms that outsource programming from programmers that are unwilling to give even the integrators the code. So before you go and "educate" anyone you may want to think about who's side you are on here. Of course I did read today that you bought a TV off the Internet to save a few bucks so.....................

Yes. Once the source code is compiled and sent to the processsor they are SOL.


That is what we do. We sell the code as a separate line item not including custom modules AND it is stored off site at our attorneys office.

Another ignorant statement. I suppose you program URC?

problem solved, just put this warning page as the home screen of your files :)

I'm also curious why homeowners are contacting you regarding this issue.

My perspective and stance has always been that the code is given to the client if they request it, but is licensed for use on that system only. It's kind of like buying a copy of MS Office or other software licenses, i.e. you can't just install it anywhere you want. We do have a client now that is asking for the opposite, i.e. to write code that they can establish as a "standard" and use over and over again. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, it's like any other enterprise license. It just needs to be priced as such to be licensed as such.

A few years back we did a lot of takeover work for a big company that went out of business and hadn't given clients the source code. It was considered an asset of the company and sold by the receiving bank as part of the bankruptcy, i.e. clients had to contact the bank, buy their code and then provide it to us for finishing & modifications. My guess is that this would be the case in other bankruptcies as well, provided the company had the code backed up and organized such that the receiver could find it. If it was on some techs laptop somewhere then the customer could be up a creek.

I am not an attorney, so take this with a grain of salt, but I would say that if something like this every went to court a lot of it would come down to whether you contracted for programming, i.e. a service or to provide software, i.e. a product. Contracting for programming the customer is paying for the time and would probably own what you created during that time. If it software that I would see it more as a license to use.

This is also brings up questions such as who owns code/modules created by an employee. Is the employee programmer free to take his/her modules with him/her when the leave a company or would that be theft of intellectual property. I'd say in most industries it would be the property of the company as the programmer was paid to create it.

There have been a number of seminars around this and similar topics. All in all this is a complex legal topic that should be addressed by a qualified attorney, not something a magazine should be going anywhere near.

I think there is absolutely no question, a programmer that is employed by a company is working for that company and 100% of what is coded is property of the company. To take that code and use it outside of company use would in fact be theft. Obviously the contents of someone's head is property of that person, so having gained expertise in programming is not owned by the company, but physical or electronic property that was developed is not the property of the employee.

When it comes to a subcontractor, that is where the "contract" part of the relationship comes into play and is obviously of great importance. A subcontractor could be brought in to behave more or less like an employee and therefore produce code who's IP is 100% the company, or perhaps they will be retained on a basis where there is joint ownership or no ownership by the company, except for executables. In such a free market framework, the contractor could be compensated appropriately depending on the exact nature of the contractor's work.

Everything that is "licensed" music, movies, software, books etc. Is protected by by copyright and licensing agreements etc. If the cherished intellectual property of an installer is not protected by patent, copyright or license agreement it belongs to the customer.

In short, if it's not specifically stipulated in a contract the customer owns it. If there is not a copyright on the user interface, you're screwed.

I personally feel that it all belongs to the customer, once he pays of course. I would never have the audacity to say or do otherwise.

Jesus.. at least put the drop shadow in there Duct ;).

We sell and appropriately charge the client for both the hardware and the code to use said hardware. When the balance is due the client can have the code if requested. So far we have not had a client request the code, but if it happens its states on the contract that they have paid for it. And they are entitled to have in possession what they have paid for.

I am surprised by those here that get in a huff about this issue. I personally think that holding the client hostage when the bill is paid is a black cloud on our industry. It is one of those things that embarrass me about our industry!!

Please write the article Julie, you can mention us and direct any projects our way!! :)
We will not hold any hostage...

I don't know...I programmed a job for another company approx. 6 months ago. The owners are in the house (a $6-8 million dollar beast of home). They are living with the system, enjoying the benefits and I even did a number of favors for them while I was on site coding Action Script for the project (things like adding control of their blinds via 6 different hand held remotes. It was easy. Not in the contract but I was glad to help them). Then things went sour. The clients ended up turning hostile on the company that had hired me and never paid their bill in full. There's some 5 figure sum yet to be resolved and yet, they demand the programming I've done. My response? Nothing. I won't give 'em a damn thing. Were they to pay the bill today (lo, these many months later) I still wouldn't give them anything. They couldn't even pay for it at this point. Just as our contract didn't say they wouldn't own the code, it doesn't say they would either. Had they been cool, sure, I would have given it up. They weren't cool and I'm a mean ba$tard.

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According to American Jurisprudence:

So, in my uninformed, not-an-attorney opinion, the work is copyrighted.

But that's not really what's at issue. It's who owns the copyright. Generally the person who does the authoring is the copyright holder. There are exceptions to that rule, though. The "work for hire" doctrine states that a program written in the scope of employment belongs to the employer. If you are subbing for a contractor, you'd have to work through agency law to see who owned the copyright in that case. Work for hire might apply to a private contractor-home owner relationship as well if it is a contribution to a collective work, or if the copyright holder assigns the rights to the home owner.

But the application of the rules is complicated. For example, would a remote in a system be considered a contribution to a collective work? You'd have to ask an attorney. Depending on your relationship with the company, your relationship with the customer, etc, the law varies.

You're dealing with complicated copyright law and you really need to consult a copyright attorney. As this is probably for publication, perhaps finding a law professor that specializes in copyright law that would be able to answer your questions might be the best course of action.

I havent dealt with Crestron or AMX before, but with RTI there is always a way to unlock the programming as long as you are an authorised dealer, so this feel like a moot point.
The customer owns a copy of the programming as it is currently running their system. They do not, I believe, own the rights to all of the programming and special codes written for the benefit of the programmer to speed up the job. They have been developed for the benefit of the integrator (author) and have likely not been billed fully to the customer.
If the customer has paid for unique and custom graphics, and paid for that programming time in full, they own it.
If I have a client who would like to have custom modules written for all of their equipment at full labor rates, they can own that too....