Unfortunatley he had about 6 other pressing issues that he needed resolved before I could even get to this one. It's not the Monster, or the RF module. Tested without both to same result.

Lou. It may indeed by a neutral issue, but the issue occured before the circuit was installed, and only "fixed itself" in one location after changing the receiver.

I don't know guys. I think the homeowner has decided he has bigger fish to fry, and is going to be ok with the momentary loss of sound. He's single. and he would have to be up to switch on the fan, or light. It's not like it will be doing reference listening while standing at the light switch. I think I'm going to file this one in the GMAK drawer ad call it a day on this job. The electrician will never admit it if it is his issue, and I'm not paying another electrician out of pocket to come out there...

I have had wall dimmers and vairious controls kick strange noise into systems before.

This is not a WAG like a few of the sugesstions mentioned to date.

I'd give this better than 50/50 to resolve the issue

lol, i will do my best!


you get feedback anytime a circuit isn't properly terminated, on any of the wires, this feedback is due to the added resistance of the circuit, due to arcing, thus giving you a different grounding resistance, or what we all call , a ground loop. since in an A/C panel the neutral buss is USUALLY tied to the ground buss, then from anywhere in the circuit the two wires should electrically be (almost) the exact some point. changing this induces noice (or a/c feedback into the circuit).


IMHO (and training) this particular blanket statement is very true. take an O-scope and put in on an outlet that is on the same circuit as an incandescent light. because of many of the same reasons listed above, the lights lack of any sort of filtration and it just being exactly what you said ( a varying resistance ) causes it to be a terrible source of noise. i could bore you with more explanation but just check it with a meter and see for yourself.


you are absolutley right, an improperly connected hot would cause this issue, in the same circuit. not to say it could not happen, but i have never seen an issue with a hot affect any other circuit, unless it shorts and causes the main to trip. there is the chance that you have feedback through the hot buss for that side of the panel, but once again this would be a first for me if i saw it.


the reason why i used the term losely describe is because once again you are right on your definition of brownout , almost, a brownout as opposed to a blackout, is caused when just one leg of the circuit goes low, put very simply. it is actually nothing like a brownout in reallity but i was trying to relay the idea of the added resistance on that particular circuit causing a temporary increase in current draw decreasing available power to the rest of the circuit.


we all learn , everyday. i have seen this also. it is usually cause by a faulty outlet or lose wire, which will let small amounts of draw pass, but when put under heavy draw, the connection heats up, causing an interuption in available power thus not enough "juice" to run a drill. i learned that one the hard way also, but isn't that how we learn most things in life. :)


i will have respectfully disagree with you, a spark is just the end result of a bad arc, so if it is arcing inside the panel, but not sparking yet then, it could go on for a while and you never know it. if you have ever worked with contactors, then the pitt marks you see on the contacts after a while of usage is actually caused by the arc that occurs any time the contactor closes, due to current drain and the initial difference of potential between the contact points, but very rarely do you ever see these "spark"


i want to thank you for the brain stretcher, it has been awhile since i had to get into electrical theory that deep, nice to see i still remember most of it. if you feel that i have any of this wrong , do let me know, it has been a few years more than i want to admit since i took a theory class.

proaudio

It's not called feedback in electrical wiring, though that is the way you understand it. Sparky would scrunch his face up big time if you told him this.


Not right terminology. Added resistance does not cause arcing, although a nearly completely loose connection may arc.


A different ground potential is what you are trying to get at, which is in your next statement, "a ground loop". However, it is not added resistance, arcing, and such which precipitates this.


Yes, ground and neutral are tied together at the panel. A/C feedback is not correct terminology again. Sparky again would think you were a bit off.


Again, feedback does not describe anything HV oriented. You must be thinking of something else.


A brownout is a reduction in AC voltage to a home or business that would usually be 90 volts or less.


Added resistance NEVER increases current draw but instead ALWAYS decreases it.


A spark and an arc are two terms that describe the same event. An arc could be describing a more dramatic spark, but electrically, sparking and arcing are describing the same thing: A poor connection with a gap between that the EMF is able to jump across. The larger the gap, the larger EMF (higher voltage) is required to make the jump. Depending on humidity and other factors, it may be on the order of apx 25Kv per inch.


You obviously have learned your electrical as you have progressed and have a good working knowledge to get you through your projects. The terms you use are just very interesting!!

not to be offensive but i have found that the average "sparky" barely understands english , much less true electrical theory. i am not sure what you would call noise induced into a line voltage due to activity in the circuit, but i have always called it feedback. i will definatley check my definition, nothing sucks as bad as using the wrong terms in a proffesional conversation.


lose connection, switch point, contactor, etc... all have minimal arcing even in ideal conditions. but isn't arcing caused due to a presence of power in the lines that eventually overomes the gap (or open, or extreme added resistance). so without the added resistance allowing the buildup of an electrical resistance between two points, there would be no arc. that being said your statement taken any other way than exactly literal would be correct and i am not sure if i relayed exactly what i meant last night when i wrote the post.


you are correct, totally correct, once again i didn't mean it the way it was stated, and i apologize.


i point towards my first responce.


HV?


now if you approach it from a single circuit in a home then this is correct. however if you speak with someone who has worked on alot of 3 phase voltage or especially in an actual power plant, they usually refer to a brownout as low voltage on one leg of the feed, causing the lights to dim or brownout, and not completely off. however i have just noticed that most of our differences here are strickly terminology, not theory, which oddly enough i am cool with.


holy crap, you are so right and i am so retarted, i don't even know why i would say that.


once again terminology- i have always refered to an arc as pure electricity, where a spark usually contains the burning of some other substance creating more of a fire than just electricity.


it is very interesting that your assesment of my knowledge, lead you to believe that i was either self taught through experience or had purely OJT. i would like to respond to that statement with three of my own: 1) thank you for being respectful while saying that you think i am uneducated (lol) , 2) please take notice, as i have, at what time i responded to the post, some of us are late night people, i am not, and i will never respond to a post that late again, kind of like drunk calling, it may sound like a good idea at the time, but you always end up sounding like an ASS 3) i was educated in a program designed by both CalTech and M.I.T., top of my class which then led to me having the opportunity to teach in the same program, passing that up i advanced to another program and learned to operate a system that we have all heard of. i am a former navy TOMAHAWK TECH. graduating top of my class again i chose to teach only to have my career cut short due to an illness that forced me too have surgery, getting me a general under honorable discharge. i have been involved with electronics even before my navy days, but have spent a fair amount of time as an electrical contractor doing control wiring and programming for industries. i can understand your opinion of my training due to the babbling that put in my post last night. i hope this post has cleared up some of those misconseptions.

proaudio

High Voltage.

lol, ok, i will go get my rasberry windex and get back to my window. now i really feel retarted.
thank you

proaudio

I just want to add that I think this thread is both educational and interesting. Thank you all for your responces and Scotty, please keep us informed of the status of this project. I really want to follow this through to the end and bookmark this thread for future reference.

GMAK?

As for ProAudio95, I don't know where to start. I don't understand him, language or concepts, while he throws grammar stones at the electricians in his glass house. I know that was mixed, but, hey, what's a metaphor anyway?

I would probably refer to the noise as conducted emissions. This is a term used commonly when getting FCC approvals for devices. The devices have to pass several different tests. One of which is for noise coupled through the power cord onto the power line, and the name most commonly referred to for this test is conducted emissions testing.

Also, to be perfectly correct, I wouldn't refer to the noise as being induced, unless I knew it coupled into the wire due to electric or magnetic fields the wire traveled through. Since the idea here is that the conductor is carrying the noise directly from the source, referring to the noise as "induced" is a bit misleading.


Arcs happen more often that most of us ever realize. If a light switch is controlling a fairly capacitive load, arc's are more possible. They happen when the ionization potential of the air, is less than the voltage of the circuit. This by definition happens every time, as the mechanical switch is nothing more that two pieces of metal that touch each other, and come closer in contact as the switch is flipped on. At some point they get close enough, that the switch arcs. The issue is if you do this fast enough, not much energy is consumed, and the arc is very faint. Also if the air is dry, the ionization potential is higher, meaning the switch contacts are closer together when the arc forms. It is possible to make switches that don't arc. These are usually contacts in a chamber that is sealed, with a vacuum pulled on the chamber before it is sealed.

But they often happen with very resistive loads as well. If you turn a light switch connected to a fairly loaded 15 amp circuit on a humid day, you'll get a sparc almost every time! Now, you normally won't see it, as it is pretty small, and contained within the body of the switch. I noticed this, as a home I had used switches where the rear plastic was a lightly milky white. One day I was doing some work, and had the switchplate off. Flipping the switch on and off, I could see a faint glow within the body of the switch briefly in the dimly lit room.

Anyway, technically, the air itself is a conductor during the arc, and the air itself has been ionized, causing it to act as a low enough impedance to complete the circuit. So, technically the air is a low resistance during the arc. So, this gets into the difference between a spark and arc.

I believe the difference is that an arc is actually completing a circuit. The air is ionized to create the arc, and the arc is carrying current. A spark, is not completing a circuit, it can be a small area of ionized air that has seperated from the arc, but is not carrying current.

bcf1963
i really appreciate your depth of knowledge on the two topics you commented on, and i would have to say that as best i can remember you are absolutly right. the noise that i refered to as being induced was put that way because it doesn't exist in the system until the components interact, but "induced" would be the wrong term, thank you for the clarification. i would say basically the same for your description between arc and a spark.

ernie
i regret that i am not coming across clear to you. i have spent well over a decade in the field slowly unlearning all of my correct terminology, partially due to lack of intelligent in-depth conversations and partially due to the fact that when you have a conversation with someone who doesn't understand the concepts you are trying to relay you always get "well i don't know what that means, we call it this", and that has changed my approach to explaining things. after years of trying to fight the battle of using the right terms and talking theory, i have been, for the lack of a better term, "dumbed down" to survive in an atmosphere of OJT multi-generational electricians who just call everything what their daddy did.
i am not trying to throw stones, but ask yourself how many "electricians" you know as a percentage of the feild, who could have this conversation that we have carried on here. they are not stupid, just uneducated, and that is in no way an insult. my best friend is an electrician who recently started an electronics program, and even he has come to me and said that he always thought i was being a smartass, but that now he see's that i was just trying to bring him up a level by using proper terms and theorys when discussing troubleshooting with him. i do apologize if i have offended anyone, as that is not and never would be my intention, unless specifically stated.

thank you agian for your input!

proaudio

It's nice to see that we're still questioning reality, unsure of what we're staring in the face, all these years later. I mean, here's a thread with nearly the same name as this one!

See [Link: remotecentral.com].