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A question for the Bosses
This thread has 12 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Friday February 1, 2002 at 19:20
McNasty
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My boss seems to give the customers too much info and I was just wondering how you all do your billing. We seem to run into problems with clients watching their clocks and trying to cut time off the final bill (which I'm sure they all do to an extent). But my boss sends them bills for stage payments and such that has a detailed list of what we did every day and the exact times we were at their house. Now the problem I have with this is that they read the list and wonder why it seems like a lot got done on one day and not so much on another. Which is usually the case when we have inwalls that go in nice and smooth and some that you have to remove studs, or chisel brick or concrete just to get them where the client wants them. They don't understand the time it takes to mask off there extremely expensive stuff so we don't ruin it...not to mention cleaning up. I swear I have blown more brick dust out of my nose than what was left in the house on occasions. But anyways, what I was trying to get at was that I don't think the client needs to know I got at their house at 8:15 and left at 5:30, especially since we round off a lot to make our sheets easier to read. eg: If I get at a job at 8:50 I will punch in for either 8:45 or 9:00 and then adjust my time of departure to make it even. In otherwords I try to keep it to the quarter hour. It basically just makes it easier to add up each week. I just don't understand why he can't just let them know the amount of hours we work? Anybody agree? Don't get me wrong, I think it is great to keep the customer informed...But I do think there is such a thing as too informed.
Post 2 made on Friday February 1, 2002 at 19:42
Nick20
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I don't know, I would say keep on putting down the exact times you get there and leave (with other things like lunch, if something goes wrong, etc.) and then do the billing hours from that. That way you're covered in case a customer brings up any argument. Say you get there at 8:50 but started the clock at 8:45, even if you do adjust the ending time the customer may not notice that at first and your butt will be on the line.

The customer needs to be aware of how many hours each day that they were billed for, and if he questions anything then you bring out the sheet and say "hey, we got to your place at 9:00 and left at 1:00", they can't really say anything to that unless you spent an hour or so standing around goofing off.

Remember YOU'RE the installer, if the guy wants an in-wall speaker on an outside wall then you gotta point out up front that it's gonna take longer and requires more work IF he really wants it there. Haha, usually if I remind them that, "hey, we are charging $XXX an hour", they tend to see things differently. :)

Nick
Post 3 made on Friday February 1, 2002 at 19:48
Matt
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I guess I do more bid jobs than time and materials. Especially bigger installs.
OP | Post 4 made on Saturday February 2, 2002 at 14:01
McNasty
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Well, that's what our problem is...All of our jobs are bid jobs, and it just seems like we go over bid an aweful lot. It just seems like our boss bids the job as a normal job with no problems, and then we start establishing wire routes and we find out there are a lot of obsticles. If I had it my way I would tell the customer that it was time and materials or that I would bid it if they would let me make 2 or 3 1" X 1" inspection holes around the house to see what we are dealing with. Every house is different, and some of these customers just need to understand that what we provide is not what everyday people get...it's expensive stuff and we take pride in making the system sound nice, be easy to operate, and of course look nice within their home. I'm at the point now where it almost seems like I should bash holes all over the house to make the wiring go faster to make bid. But I would rather make as few holes as possible and snake the wire the right way.
Post 5 made on Saturday February 2, 2002 at 16:22
Tony Golden
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I've bid on a number of jobs over the years, and maybe one out of ten comes in at, or under, the bid -- it just doesn't work, unless you know EVERYTHING beforehand, and something still could go wrong. Most dealers I've ever talked to have pretty much the same (or worse) story.

To remain profitable, you'll either have to start doing the exact same thing over and over -- not fun, and NOT custom -- or switch to a time and materials billing format.

Now, I generally give the client a *proposal* of what it *should* cost, if everything goes as planned, but explain that the final price will be based on actual time and materials. I've yet to have anyone balk at this approach, and if they do, I probably don't want them as a customer anyway.
Post 6 made on Sunday February 3, 2002 at 10:12
Mike Krueger
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We're going through the same change at our company. Our hours are all estimated which would seem great right? Well, yes and no. My boss and our one salesman like to use this category in our contracts called allowances! Which I precieve as a lack of ability or knowledge or time to figure out what actually goes into an install to make it work. Not to mention the billing issues associated when the installer, who already has a million things to remember, has to itemize everything used on the job site. I would love to have stuff bid out again, so that the salesman/designer had to do there job instead of the installer doing it for them. If the job runs over, it's a poorly planned out design and they really don't know your abilities as an istaller.
Post 7 made on Sunday February 3, 2002 at 10:47
Matt
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Well, there of course has to be some addendums for add-on's etc. "If the customer keeps moving the goal posts, you can never score the touchdown" is what my old boss always said. And yes, bidding is tough, that's why you see so many jobs with higher than normal costs. Unfortunatly, that's the way it is. We (the company I work for) always say up front that it could be up to 20 percent more in case of unknowen circumstances. Most of the time, if you can prove these cost overruns, the customer will not argue your charges.

As far as system design, salesmen should NOT be designing systems unless they came from the field. They essentially no idea how all this stuff works in the real world. Every company should have an engineer to do this for them, along with CAD drawings of the system.
Post 8 made on Sunday February 3, 2002 at 16:38
Thon
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There are a few important points here. We have a standard contract that we use for each job (particularly retro-fits) that explains are billing procedure in detail. We also have an equipment list generated by computer at design for the installer to follow so that nothing is missed. Lastly, I know it is a pain to document hours and detail everything, but it does give the customer more confidence that they are getting value for their money and this will be important for refferals, even if they don't read the itemized list. Carry on.
How hard can this be?
Post 9 made on Sunday February 3, 2002 at 17:17
Matt
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Document, document, document...unfortunatly sometimes the installers/techs think that this is more a check on their productivity than it is for 'emergency' circumstances. Although, it can be used for goal setting etc.
Post 10 made on Saturday March 16, 2002 at 12:36
J.Alan
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What I do with my company is provide in the contract the verbage that this is only an estimate, and that they will be billed for time on the job. I have had no problems bidding and landing jobs this way.
Post 11 made on Sunday March 17, 2002 at 09:52
Shoe
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Thon, J.Alan, and Matt in the last three posts preceeding mine have it about right as I see it.
I notice that most off the criticism is coming from installers and i agree a lot of it is justified but it is coming from hindsight. It is a lot easier to have it right after the install
Post 12 made on Monday March 18, 2002 at 22:27
audiotec
No Longer Registered
I have read most of the posting here and find both sides of the coin to have valid points. I can easily argue any one of them as most of you can see there always seem to be the struggle between the installer/salesperson relationship. I have been in the industry for over 15 years now and run my own company. I have both installed and sold most of all of my jobs as I see it it's a valid point that the sales person needs to have some experience in the construction of a home in order to visualize the necessary efforts in getting a wire somewhere. If a sales person cannot do this than they need to be trained or have a lead installer walk the job prior to the proposal being given this not only makes your company look like you know what you are doing but it gives the customer the confidence to believe in the sales persons qualifications and even justify paying a higher price. Most people dont have a problem paying for necessary work it's when they pay for unnecessary work that they feel they should'nt have to so bring up these issues upon inspection but dont make it sound as such a monumental operation, say you will be "making an opening" instead of "making a hole" a surgeon doesn't "cut you open, they make an incision." your representation as an installer when it comes time to work in the finished home wether brand new or lived in with antiques will make the customer feel comfortable with there decision in hiring your company. treat there property with respect you arent the plumber or the refrigerator delivery guy so don't act like one and impress your customer you will get rewarded in many ways and they won't question your labor and your judgement act PROFESSIONAL and remember educating the customer and giving them the confidence in your proficency will keep you from having to justify you labor, come up with a formula for a prewire and post wire for the each product your installing and use this to bid out the work. I always bid on the higher side and if my customer asks why is the labor what it is I tell them that the estimated ammount is a maximmum labor cap that they will not pay more than this ammout for the installation however if the labor is less than they are only billed for what labor it takes.
Post 13 made on Saturday March 23, 2002 at 15:47
malchus6
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I've bid hundreds of jobs and also done many T&M ones too. What the customer sees from your billing, in my humble opinion, is too much information. Just like the sales process should not include too much info, neither should the bill. You do need to document for your own records the exact times that the installers left the shop, arrived on the JS, took lunch breaks...etc, but you do not need to let the customer know this either, unless requested on a T&M bid by the customer. If you arm the customer with too much info, they will become a dangerous adversary instead of an excellent customer reference. Be careful in disclosing too much information. You will also end up losing money over the long run for your net, net. If you estimate a job to be 21.5 hours and the job goes smoother than expected, you may usually bill somewhere close to that to make up for those jobs that go over on contract or for troubleshooting problems. Remember, you are in business to service the customers needs AND to make money/a living. Be fair for both you and your customers and you will be just fine.

Mike


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