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Topic:
Crestron Modules vs Native iOS Apps...
This thread has 15 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Monday October 1, 2012 at 21:09
rgbyhkr
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So, I'm about to step into a new home that is already outfitted with a Crestron system (MC3, DM8x8, etc) installed within the last 18 months or so. I will be using the same installer as the one who did the original job (already have a good working relationship with them) to expand on the system. I'm a very, very technical guy so in advance of planning the upgrades with the installer, I am doing lots of homework about what’s possible, how, what the options are, etc. In doing that, I have come across something that is more of a best practices question on a few areas of expansion, and I thought I would throw it out to the community here and see how others feel.

Basically, the main control panels in the home currently are iDevices along with some hard button remotes and my inclination is to keep it that way. I'll check out options for dedicated Crestron touch panels, especially for reliability, but I can't see them being my primary UI (certainly, I welcome feedback on this as well from experienced professionals). One of the benefits of the iOS hardware solution is the ability to switch control mechanisms from the Crestron Mobile App to the device specific iOS app. Given the meteoric rise of these kind of apps, in some cases, the available Crestron module may fall well short of what's available in the native app. Sonos comes first to mind here. The downside is that you have to leave the Crestron interface (even if it's only with a simple 4-figer swipe on the iPad) and move over to that interface and then switch back when you’re done. It's not a big deal, but it's definitely a break in the user experience and while you're in the native app, you don't have any access to other system controls via Crestron. The issue as I see it is that replication of the native app may incur significant programming fees for an experience that might be hard to match with the native app - not to mention ongoing functionality updates to the device that might necessitate further programming.

For reference, I've been thinking this as a result of looking into control options for Sonos (killer iPad app), Sooloos (iPad app pretty much replaces the Control15), Nest (currently loving their thermostats), Pool Control (house already has an Aqualink PDA - think I can go either Crestron or iOS on this one), Security Cameras (looking into Watchdog DVR solutions). For some of those I know I can implement a solution that is Crestron friendly, but I don't know that it's as good as the native solution. Maybe it's just a case of having to decide between full functional native but isolated and integrated but functionally more limited? The former seems great to me, but I wonder if the rest of my far-less tech savvy family will prefer the latter.

So my general question is, what do professionals think about this question? Do you use or even encourage native app control for certain devices in an iOS friendly system? If not, why not? I'd love to hear some thoughts on both sides.

Thanks in advance and I appreciate all the feedback!

Jeff
Post 2 made on Tuesday October 2, 2012 at 20:49
longshot16
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Jeff
Let me reply from two fronts here.

Dealer side with experience and product knowledge.

Customer Side waiting 10 months for my system to be in place at my house using native apps for DTV, Sonos, Receivers, and some other ones including all my lighting on the Crestron iPad/iPhone.

Native apps have the advantage of having every possible feature accessible like you mentioned.

Native apps do not have some of the features completely accessible on one screen (Direct TV). Great for setting up features but sucks donkey nads for watching TV. Connection was intermittent at best.

My Crestron Direct TV has channel and transport controls, Number pad, cursor pad, and 18 favorite channels on the same screen. Absolute magic. I like watching TV again.


Music- Sonos is great for what it is but you can get the exact level of control and music from Mirage MMS-5A or MMS-2. All built into your Crestron interface.

I just installed mine and it is just fine. Easy to use and again on one page.

Think about things you will loose like having a light button or Temp button on every single page (Very small icons for the tech savvy). Might never be used by your family but gives you control.

I can say that my handheld remotes arrived today and I never want to open my ipad again. I slowly began to loathe it as a control device.

iPads present great value for their large screen. But when you compair them to a dedicated interface (hopefully with hard buttons) they loose their luster to me.

Again every single system I sell uses them because of their price but if you can afford it please look at some of their dedicated options.

MLX3 is only $500 and it rocks. MTX has touch screen and can be tricked out and is $1100 or so retail.

To be quite honest I have lived without for so long I never want to go back. I wait for the day I can tell my clients (in a loving manor) I told you so.

Hope it helps.
The Unicorn Whisperer
Post 3 made on Tuesday October 2, 2012 at 20:57
longshot16
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Might I add that all the above is completely dependent on your dealers programming capabilities.

work with your guy out outsource the code if needed.
The Unicorn Whisperer
Post 4 made on Tuesday October 2, 2012 at 21:01
longshot16
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Sorry but because this has been the bane of my existence for the last year (not to mention my wife) I beg you to do it all through Crestron and only use the others for supplemental control.
The Unicorn Whisperer
Post 5 made on Wednesday October 3, 2012 at 03:50
sofa_king_CI
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I completely understand where you are coming form and use both and I'll elaborate. We always have a hard keypad for every audio zone and for lighting at the main entry's and master suite. A dedicated handheld hardbutton control for every Video Zone. 

These are the fail safes that not only work every time but don't require you to necessarily look at what you are doing, making TV watching much brainless as you often what it to be. 

The Keypads allow simple and quick on/off, volume and scenes like All AV and Lighting OFF, all lighting OFF, Home, etc. 

If you are using Sonos as a source on a distributed audio system, this works because you can still have the keypads for quick on/off and volume. Only pulling out the Sonos control for content selection.

We do this now, but we use the Autonomic Control server so that instead of pulling up the Sonos app, the user just goes to crestron and now they can still adjust volume, lights, party modes, etc within the one app. 

The Autonomics Piece is built for flexibility and the way I understand the control module works allows for new features without breaking the control module. For example when they added support for Spotify. So this is my preference over Sonos as the media server. 

I do however use my TiVo IOS app all the time for managing my recordings and scheduling recordings. It is faster than doing it with the on screen UI and just works very well. That said, I HATE using it for just watching TV.

Things like CCTV I suggest the native IOS app, but if the video can be embedded, then do it for convenience of quick viewing when it Crestron App or Touch Panel. 
do wino hue?
OP | Post 6 made on Wednesday October 3, 2012 at 09:44
rgbyhkr
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Thanks to you both for the thoughts and the feedback.
In addition to reading your posts and poking around more online, I've had several conversations with manufacturers about how their products integrate with Crestron. So far, I've chatted with Meridian, Digital Watchdog, Zodiac (Aqualink maker) and will likely do a few more. LIke I said, I'm technical and like to know how these things will work before I jump in.

Here are a few thoughts I have as of now:

1 - I always planned to have hard button handheld remotes in all video zones. My wife would never go for a touchpanel/iPad only solution. Tried that years ago with the old Phillips Pronto and she hated it. This is one of those areas where muscle memory is way more useful than the touch panel's flexibility. I will be checking out the MLX, MTX and TPMC to see which works best for which zones.

2 - My thought on iPads is in lieu of the larger, usually wall-mounted, proprietary panels. The home currently makes use of them in the system for this purpose. I have gotten some feedback though that is making me think about how a few panels could be useful. For one, they would be wired and therefore not prone to wireless issues. I will be investigating to be sure, but the home has been outfitted with a built-in WIFI network to allow for those iPads to have reliable signals. Even so, I can still see how wired panels would be useful fallbacks. In addition, a wall mounted solution never runs out of battery charge, doesn't get lost, dropped, etc. Depending on cost, I could see doing one per level.

3 - All lighting controls will have hard button switches in the respective rooms. This is another nod to my wife. While extensive scene controls will be accessible from more complex interfaces, she's just going to want simple and reliable hard buttons. It's that legacy nod to what we have now to simple, dumb switches, but I can't expect her to radically change behavior on something like this. That being said, I'm also interested in room sensors that could allow for lights coming on automatically in some rooms when people come in and turning off when they go.

4 - I'm going to have to think about quick access audio control. Sofa King's thought is a good one as I can totally see the need to quickly mute/unmute audio, like when a phone call comes in, etc. There are a bunch of ways that could get implemented, so I'll have to run through that with the installer. The keypads may be a cost effective route, especially since hard buttoned lighting control will be a must for my wife. I definitely know that I don't want the Sonos handling volume control or zone grouping - that should be handled by Crestron.

5 - One thing that appears more clear to me now is how I could actually do both - native iOS app AND a Crestron module. My Meridian dealer talked about a recent install of an MC600 where they did exactly that. Most of the family members just use the Crestron integrated control module while the dad may jump into the iPad app now and then. This could easily be something I do, especially since mnost hardware pieces have that iOS control piece built-in (Aqualink would require additional hardware for the web/iOS interface, but that's the only one I've seen so far that would need a hardware add-on - Sooloos no longer needs a hardware bridge for Crestron integration). Also, there's no reason why I couldn't choose to start with the iOS app for a device and then pay to add the more direct Crestron control later. As long as what I'm doing with the app doesn't mess up the expected behavior for the Crestron control scheme, this could work well. For instance, I know that I'm the only one who will use the DirecTV iPad app, and that's totally ok. So, those receivers will have Crestron integration and I can jump into the app when I want to.

6 - I'm going to go through lots of potentials with my installer to work up a proposal that almost certainly includes more than I want to do right now. This way, I'd have a feel for where the system can go - and at what cost.

7 - I'm open to solutions that make things easier for the family, while relegating more complex or tweakable sources to my use only. The latter could be accomplished in a number of ways, including making some sources local only, isolated for use only in certain zones, or simply something that the other family members just choose not to use. As such, I am checking out the Autonomic solutions. I can see how this would be useful - I just want to dig into the details of how it works, etc.
Post 7 made on Wednesday October 3, 2012 at 10:53
longshot16
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autonomic does have a Native app as well as the stellar integration module.

Remember you can control the dedicated touch panels. My programmer wakes up the touch panels in the morning to show clients their traffic cameras while they are getting ready. Much easier to do with dedicated panels.
The Unicorn Whisperer
Post 8 made on Wednesday October 3, 2012 at 12:18
sofa_king_CI
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Side note on the hard keypads at least for 'key' areas. Our personal home has an entry that goes into the kitchen or down the hall to the living area. At this entry we have a keypad that is laid out like this

HOME (lights)

AWAY (lights) - press and hold to turn off lights & AV

PANDORA - turns kitchen On to Squeezebox server and starts pandora quickmix

RADIO - Turns on Music server and uses Tune-in radio and selects her radio station

MUTE

VOL - / +


The layout isn't perfect - but every single morning my wife hits the Pandora quick mix button and has music playing without looking at or thinking about anything. 
do wino hue?
OP | Post 9 made on Wednesday October 3, 2012 at 14:19
rgbyhkr
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On October 3, 2012 at 10:53, longshot16 said...
Remember you can control the dedicated touch panels. My programmer wakes up the touch panels in the morning to show clients their traffic cameras while they are getting ready. Much easier to do with dedicated panels.

Ok, so this is something I hadn't considered. You're saying that because the touch panels can receive commands, it can be triggered to display specific items, either based on a preset schedule or based upon actions. The iPad app can't do this because it, as a sandboxed app, doesn't have the ability to control hardware (wake from sleep, open the app, etc). So, it's kind of like push notifications - I can achieve the same result by manually navigating through the menus, but if I do that same thing every day at a certain time or after a certain stimulus input, why not just automate it? Just spitballing here, but a few potentials came to mind, tell me if these are not what you're talking about or simply not possible:

- Someone ringing the doorbell triggers the system to wake the panels and automatically show the video image from the front door so you can see who's there.
- A weather forecast is displayed every morning in the Master Bedroom panel at 6AM when the owners would likely be getting up.
- Incoming call on the landline phone displays caller ID on all panels

Seemingly, the options might be limited by your creativity, so I welcome any others people may have. This is an area where I usually fall short - I can dig miles deep into the tech, but I have zero creativity.
OP | Post 10 made on Wednesday October 3, 2012 at 14:28
rgbyhkr
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On October 3, 2012 at 12:18, sofa_king_CI said...
Side note on the hard keypads at least for 'key' areas. Our personal home has an entry that goes into the kitchen or down the hall to the living area. At this entry we have a keypad that is laid out like this

HOME (lights)

AWAY (lights) - press and hold to turn off lights & AV

PANDORA - turns kitchen On to Squeezebox server and starts pandora quickmix

RADIO - Turns on Music server and uses Tune-in radio and selects her radio station

MUTE

VOL - / +

The layout isn't perfect - but every single morning my wife hits the Pandora quick mix button and has music playing without looking at or thinking about anything. 

That's a good example I think of how keypads could be customized for common home functions. I also like the ability to get additional functionality via press and hold. As someone told me, the system just sees it as a button and the intelligence is behind the scenes, so a hard button can be used to trigger anything.
Post 11 made on Wednesday October 3, 2012 at 14:36
longshot16
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You are exactly right bout the system just seeing button presses. Sky is the limit.

We sub TPS-6X's in Bedrooms for all of these reasons over the iPad. The iPad can be woken up but you basically leave them on all the time with a black screen saver (simple minded description and work around).

Crestron has a bunch of new panels launching now that have come down in price but have some programming quirks that will make his job harder but your life better. Look up Core 3UI
The Unicorn Whisperer
Post 12 made on Wednesday October 3, 2012 at 15:34
thecynic315
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Here is something else to think about.

Which would you rather do:

1- Open Lighting iOS app and turn off lights, then open HVAC iOS app and set temp for the night to sleep comfortably, then open the iOS apps for every AVR and TV in the house to turn each one off one at a time, then open the iOS app for the security system and set the night/stay mode.

OR

2 - press a button in the Crestron App that says Goodnight.


Anecdote:

Have a client we did a lutron homeworks system for, and another dealer did his AV, just sonos and some URC remotes for TV viewing in a few rooms. He also has a CCTV system, an HVAC system, alarm system.

He uses the dedicated iOS apps for EACH of those systems.

About a month after he moved in and was all settled he asked if I could write a SINGLE iOS app to control EVERYTHING because he was going crazy going back and forth to each app.

I tried to explain a solution exits and its called Crestron/a control system, he never went for it but I believe if he had been presented with the option when the home was built he would be much happier today.
OP | Post 13 made on Wednesday October 3, 2012 at 18:56
rgbyhkr
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On October 3, 2012 at 15:34, thecynic315 said...
Here is something else to think about.

Which would you rather do:

1- Open Lighting iOS app and turn off lights, then open HVAC iOS app and set temp for the night to sleep comfortably, then open the iOS apps for every AVR and TV in the house to turn each one off one at a time, then open the iOS app for the security system and set the night/stay mode.

OR

2 - press a button in the Crestron App that says Goodnight.

Anecdote:

Have a client we did a lutron homeworks system for, and another dealer did his AV, just sonos and some URC remotes for TV viewing in a few rooms. He also has a CCTV system, an HVAC system, alarm system.

He uses the dedicated iOS apps for EACH of those systems.

About a month after he moved in and was all settled he asked if I could write a SINGLE iOS app to control EVERYTHING because he was going crazy going back and forth to each app.

I tried to explain a solution exits and its called Crestron/a control system, he never went for it but I believe if he had been presented with the option when the home was built he would be much happier today.

What I'm getting from all this is that the real power is the macro capability that interconnects multiple systems that would otherwise not have any interaction with each other. Seemingly, that's what takes Crestron from simple remote control to home automation. Integrated control is useful and cooler, but single button presses that result i multi-step, multi-platform actions could make it invaluable. That's something we definitely don't have now and I suspect would be something that my wife isn't even thinking she wants, but would become really enjoyable later (Maybe not Tivo/DVR enjoyable, but up there :) ).
Post 14 made on Thursday October 4, 2012 at 12:37
cjoneill
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On October 3, 2012 at 18:56, rgbyhkr said...
What I'm getting from all this is that the real power is the macro capability that interconnects multiple systems that would otherwise not have any interaction with each other. Seemingly, that's what takes Crestron from simple remote control to home automation.

That's just the start. You can also have it do things automatically based on outside prompts. For instance, your example with the doorbell activating the touchpanel and showing a live audio/video feed of the front door; opening your garage and having the lights come on inside and the system start your favorite album; have the system text you when the temperature of your wine cellar gets too hot because the compressor went out; etc.

CJ
I'm not a pro
Post 15 made on Saturday October 6, 2012 at 10:25
thecynic315
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Ignoring the really advanced displays and text to speach, with Crestron you *COULD* do this.

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