I believe many of us folks who have being programming Crestron for years know how out of the box programming gets. System Builder is an a box inside a box programming tool IMO. It is great with an Adagio system with 5 APADs, IPOD doc and Crestron music server. Beyond that the wizard part is done and the work begins. I've worked in SB before and cutting in 'normal' code is 5 times longer and subject to SB crashes along the way. I would just guess 90% of Crestron Techs dont go very far into SB just because it isn't what Crestron is all about. Why jump into a box when the very reason the company has grown is out of the box thinking.

I will tell the SB guys out there Crestron DOES update SB often and when you rebuild code it also breaks code/timing etc that was done and installed say 6 months ago. So every time SB builds the Simpl project it uses the lastest Crestron modules directed by SB.

Now on the flip side there is no way I can program and Adagio FM, XM, Ipod, APADS with a 6 zone expander in 15 minutes like SB would be able to do..

And just for the record IMO, the Crestron Yahoo group is pretty much regular coders. Some get into SB for reasons listed above but most are Simpl coders, so please don't get offended if your question isn't answered with a day. Most of us see it, but we might not have the time or experience to answer the SB question.

Id also like to see a forum dedicated to the iPad / iPod touch for home automation systems.

Offer respectfully challenged! I hate both those devices trying to find their way into home automation systems, I know it's too late to fight it.. I guess Im just too stubborn!

I'm in the middle of a complete re-programming of the file area, so please excuse that I haven't seen this thread before now.

I'm always open to new forum ideas; I just like to ensure that there is a desire for them first. Even better if someone[s] experienced on the topic can step up to help moderate.

Well, I think there's definitely a lot of interest and desire to have such a forum. While I wholeheartedly understand why many here feel that we should just forget about using Systembuilder and invest our time in learning Simpl, the reality is that it's just not practical for many of the dealers who Crestron has purposefully marketed the Prodigy product line to. If Crestron would have opened up Simpl training to every dealer who they're more than willing to accept $$ from, then I don't believe this debate would even exist. All of us Prodigy dealers [distribution or direct] who have had exposure to Simpl recognize the greater opportunities and flexibility it offers.

I went through Simpl "Essentials" training years ago, and unfortunately, never really had to use it since my job responsibilities at my former employer typically involved project design and management. SystemBuilder is freshest in my mind now, based on the last 3 projects I've done. And it seems appropriate for the level of project that I'm marketing the Prodigy line for. It works, it's cost-effective, and most importantly, my clients are buying them. I've designed/managed the 7-figure projects and I've designed/managed the 5-figure projects. As a new biz owner, the smaller projects is where I want to be right now. So far, they've all been profitable, all quick, and I've been able to deliver client expectations on every one. Prodigy is a tool - amongst many I use - in order to maintain steady cashflow.

At this level of project, I want a program language that's easy to train ALL my techs in. Training all junior-level techs in Simpl is not a practical business model and a systematic approach to programming would not be guaranteed. However, the many constraints of SystemBuilder is actually one of the reasons why I believe that it would offer a repeatable process in training my techs. Figuratively speaking, there aren't a hundred ways to get from Point A to Point B in SystemBuilder - as in Simpl. Perhaps only a handful. That type of focused methodology is much easier to copy from one tech to another.

Sure, SystemBuilder is not the perfect platform for both small and large automation projects. Sure, it's cluttered with many unnecessaries. But, it's making me $ at the level of project I'm focusing on right now. And although the learning curve has been great, I haven't lost $ yet in using it. I've witnessed in the past projects where Simpl programming was underbid, where SystemBuilder programming was underbid, and where URC programming was underbid. That danger to a biz owner exists, regardless of the limitations - or great flexibility - of the programming language. As long as an owner has the presence of mind to know how to properly price out his/her programming scope, one can make money - even with this red-headed stepchild we call SystemBuilder.

I would welcome the creation of a new thread for SystemBuilder. I'm sure there will be those individuals who will not feel like contributing to the forum for their own particular reasons, and I'm sure there will be those who will have no problem sharing their experiences and knowledge. But I feel the majority would recognize that the benefits of shared knowledge would outweigh any misgivings they may have.

NorCal AV

I completely understand, but these devices arent going anywhere and more companies are dedicating resources to bring them into home automation. I dont think the iPad wil ever replace dedicated touch panels, but it is nice to be able to pick one up and control your system when needed.

There is a huge difference between a client who has multiple touch panels and 48 zones of AV, HVAC, lighting, shades, etc... And the guys who want to be able to control a couple rooms of equipment via IR. A lot of the guys on here are do it yourself / tweakers who like to find inexpensive ways to control thier own systems.

Have you handed one to a client with a GUI on it yet? We have and it secured a $500k job for us. In the past when we hand touchpanels to clients there is no spark no interest in them. Some complain about how ugly they are. When you hand an iPad to a client their eyes light up and your sales guys dont have to work as hard anymore.

IMO the ipod touch is ok as a secondary device for an outdoor zone or maybe just give some basic features of the system to the client on his iPhone because its always on him. But the iPad is simply an amazing product. Compare one to a RTI T4. The T4 is an extreme example of ugliness but it helps illustrate how far the control system manufacturers have had their heads buried in the sand.

I disagree with gwstudios on this because i think that the iPad has already replaced dedicated control system wi-fi touchpanels. I cant tell you that the iPad has been spec'd in all of our future projects. The fact that Crestron updated their entire line of touchpanels with the exception of their TPMC-8X IMO means that Crestron feels the same way i do. Once an acceptable in-wall dock hits the streets i think it will replace larger in-wall panels also. And on top of that i think it will allow us to do things like 30 iPad's instead of 10 TPMC-8X's,5 TPS-6L's,5 12 button keypads... etc.

So yeah.. it sucks that we lose margin on all of those interface sales but just think about the product your going to be putting together for your client. The iPad is making it easier for us to sell a cool experience. Of course i wish the control system manufacturers would have done it first but that ship has sailed. If you search the forum you will see how i shared your opinion all the way up until i actually held one in my hands. A project that we had all but lost for reasons outside of our control (different state/job politics) was all of a sudden OURS once the client was handed an iPad.

To be clear guys.. I am not saying that we shouldn't have a forum for System Builder and Prodigy. I am not talking to you guys like strangers online looking for info. I am offering up my opinion on what direction you guys should steer your business the same way i would if we were buddies sitting at the bar having a drink.

My reason for posting was to make you guys aware of issues your not thinking about yet. You are not thinking about those issues because they haven't happened yet and they don't teach you about them at class. When you come from RTI and URC world you program a system and in 5 years you go back and the programming is the same and the system is the same and you swap IR files and edit text on a few buttons and viola your done in an hour. Its the same when you work with simpl and vtpro for the most part. But when you work in these wizard programs your dealing with a totally different situation.

I remembered the name of the first Crestron wizard app. Its called smart touch wizard. Guess how i have to update those systems? I have to break out the 8 year old laptop that has the software installed on it and try and remember how to make changes. When application builder came out we did a bunch of jobs and then when System Builder came out i had to rewrite every single one of them because you cant run both programs at the same time.

Like i said.. i understand the logic behind programming it yourself especially when your a small company where you always seem to have more time than money like we used to be. All im saying is that as you move forward you will learn what we did. The one thing you will always not have enough of in the years to come is time. You wont be able to give away 10,20,40 hours of programming labor to be able to use prodigy in a budget system. And when you do that you are making decisions for future you. How do you think future you is going to feel about having to dig out the old laptop only to find out that the old wizard program wont let you drop in the new touchpanel and there is no update and if there is an update you find out the new device database broke your XM menu and... Im trying to save you guys from a world of hurt.

Crestron has updated wireless panels coming out. And I agree the iPad will drive sales of automation systems. I say do it and when apple updates/ replaces it in a year Ill be happy update that program for you sir. Dedicated panels are for the system only, ipads will be outdated every twelve months and folks will keep up with them continuously needing new programming.

Have you had any experience with having to update crestron mobile files because the client moved from say a 3G to a 3GS or from a 3GS to the iPhone4? This could potentially be a problem if there is any truth to it.

As for it being outdated every twelve months i dont agree with that. Its a basic no button touchpanel and there should be no reason to replace it in 12 months as it will continue to operate the system just as it did the day it was installed. And when it does get replaced due to damage or whatever i would wager that the 2nd 3rd and 4th generation panel will still have the same features as the 1st gen just like with the iPhone. 4 versions and the new one always works with the previous version apps. Crestron Mobile shouldnt be any different. Sure there are updates for the apps but we are talking about a replacement panel. Its not like this is going to happen often.

This was my statement when the topic came up in another recent thread...
[Link: remotecentral.com]

IntegrationPros.org has a LOT of Crestron discussions, and we are in the midst of converging them into a dedicated area.

Ditto for AMX.

(We already have dedicated areas for URC, Elan/HomeLogic, Vantage, NetStreams/DigiLinx, Savant, Lutron, Control4, etc.)

Daniel is obviously free to do as he wishes, but having seen the mess in the integration area at AVS, I don't think that an area for Crestron (or AMX for that matter) would grow into anything of value.

I think it will be EXACTLY like the AVS area, with well-intentioned DIYs trying to re-create award-winning control solutions from the mountains of readily available components on eBay parts from homes, universities and corporate facilities that are making changes.

Some guy will buy some crap off eBay and wonder why nobody will help him with the software, then it will be another rich_guy scenario where there is a lot of name calling and the whole area will devolve into an area nobody wants to visit....

RC and IP have had a synergistic relationship since IPs beginning (which began right here in Daniel's CI Lounge).

Everyone at IP recognizes RC's remote file areas and discussions to be the best on the web (which is why we never built any of our own) and there is no question that the DIY community are heavily responsible for the quality of the areas. IMO, the files and in-depth discussions of pro-only products are probably best kept at the verified integrator site.

Bump

Stamp, these are great points, and scary too. I guess I need some more clarification.
To me, Composer is a wizard, it just walks you thru it, the options are few. You call Systembuilder a wizard, but it reminds me of URC, or Elan or Homeworks for that matter. To me, it seemed less pre-built and wizardy than the three I just mentioned. But it was familiar enough in format that I thought I could get used to it without tooooo much effort, though I know I am going to have to put some time into learning Systembuilder.

Second, it seems that after six years, a lot of things are going to change. Isn't is natural to assume that some of the equipment is going to be outdated and unsupported? Are you saying that Simpl works for the oldest Crestron systems to the newest? Nothing gets "broke" in Simpl as you said would happen when Systembuilder is upgraded?

Here is why this all concerns me:
I just took the 3-day class. It was a little intimidating, I had to try and get used to how Crestron does things, and I have had no experience with Crestron, but like I said before, I felt that after the third day, with some time, I could get a handle on Systembuilder.

I started looking at Prodigy because I wanted an affordable but powerful system that had 2way feedback. I like the handheld remote. I like the Tstats. I like the new dimmers (the old ones were ugly). I like the fact that Crestron made it all, and knows how they work together. So often, tech support for the control system has no idea how the lights, tstat etc work and vice versa, so you end up going back and for between two tech supports trying to get an answer. I felt like that would be alleviated with Prodigy.

Also, I felt like this was a way to leverage the Crestron name and reliability, to offer the same to people who wouldn't be able to afford a full Crestron system. I KNEW I wouldn't have the time to learn Simpl. I am a one man band. I want a powerful and easy to use, functional, system. Prodigy seems to be that system. But some of the points you bring up make me wonder if I should be going that route.

So like two guys on bar stools, I'm asking for input. If I stay in the sandbox, you're saying that I'm essentially short-changing customers because I'm really giving them a C4 or RTI system with a Crestron name? And if I get out of the sandbox, Prodigy doesn't have what it takes, or that making it work will be many times harder than if the system was programmed with Simpl? As small as I am, and will likely be for some time to come, do you think Prodigy is a good business decision?

I'm sure I'm not thinking of all the questions that could be asked, but your comments on things "breaking" when they update the program scared me. I don't want to have to go back continually to jobs to fix things, or have to do a lot of reprogramming just because I added some lights or a TV.

Anyway, you obviously have a lot of experience with Creston. Any insight will be greatly appreciated.
Regards,

G

Prodigy Composer is very easy to walk thru and configure but as i am sure you and everyone else here has already found.. your working inside a very small box. Look at the responses in this thread.. everyone here is a Prodigy dealer asking for help with System Builder. They have already outgrown the tiny box and now they are in a slightly larger box. cgav is already working around the parameters to customize his projects. This is why i chimed in here. These are not guys who are going to deal Prodigy as Prodigy is meant to be dealt. These are guys who will be doing full blown Crestron systems next year or maybe next month and i am offering up my opinion/advice/history to try and get them to head what i think is the right direction. I spent 5 years learning System Builder inside and out and now we don't use it because our average job is well beyond its capabilities. Before that i spent 2 years learning Application Builder. If i had spent those 5-7 years learning simpl i would have a valuable skill instead of a story to tell.

Before i go much further.. Im not saying you cant accomplish a large system with System Builder.. just that its MUCH more efficient/less expensive to do it with simpl.

System Builder is like a WYSIWYG front end for multiple Crestron programs. This is a great idea and it works very well. As an installer i am able to program a crestron system myself. This is the appeal. Its easy to get started with a rock solid product. Your interfaces are autogenerated and then you go in page by page moving fixing changing adding things. If you were using VTPro-e and simpl you would create 1 TPMC-8X file (for example) that could be used for 10 TPMC-8X's. When your client changes from cable to DirecTV you just have to update one menu page on the VTPro file. Obviously its a more difficult program to learn but if your going to spend hours/days/weeks learning one then IMO you should start with simpl.



I dont know the answer to this question because i am not familiar enough with simpl to know if todays current version can edit a 10 year old system. My lack of information is because i went down the wrong path when i reached the fork in the road many years ago. I do know that we took over a 5 year old simpl system and our current programmer was able to make changes to it with simpl. At another job where the client had 3 - 1 room systems that i programmed with Application Builder...i had to rewrite them all with System Builder when he got new DirecTV boxes. My other option was to uninstall all of my crestron software and reinstall Application Builder and have to go thru it all again the next time he makes a change. So i bit the bullet and rewrote the 3 rooms and now fingers are crossed that i can edit them with System Builder when i go there again.

My posts are not saying Prodigy is not for you. My posts are saying that if you are a Prodigy dealer and your now looking for ways to work outside of the box.. that your time is better spent learning simpl. If your not interested in being the programmer in 5 years.. dont try to be one now. Hire one. Handle the partof the business that your interested in handling and find a professional to outsource the other areas to.

Composer does look like a small box. I suppose it has it's place though.


"These are not guys who are going to deal Prodigy as Prodigy is meant to be dealt."


How do YOU think it is meant to be dealt? To stay in Composer? To dabble in Systembuilder? I'm curious as to how fast one outgrows Systembuilder. On the other Prodigy thread, Alan said "keep your geek gene in check". By that I figure he meant not to get too custom, just install a good and repeatable system.


These are guys who will be doing full blown Crestron systems next year or maybe next month and i am offering up my opinion/advice/history to try and get them to head what i think is the right direction. I spent 5 years learning System Builder inside and out and now we don't use it because our average job is well beyond its capabilities. Before that i spent 2 years learning Application Builder. If i had spent those 5-7 years learning simpl i would have a valuable skill instead of a story to tell.

What you say here makes good sense. I don't think that I will be doing full blown Crestron in a year, but who knows?

Changes are inevitable, which makes me wonder how hard those changes will be with Systembuilder and Prodigy. Even with the upgrades that are coming.

I know your posts aren't trying to discourage anyone, you are trying to share your experience and what you learned the hard way. I appreciate that. That's why I asked the questions, I've been reading the threads trying to make the most informed decision I can. It's really hard to know until you do it, but like Hasbeen said on his thread, I've got limited resources, I don't want to pick something and hate it two months later. Or find out that I can't make it work without an enormous investment of time and energy.

My thought is that as an entry level automation system Prodigy is great. It looks good. It seems capable of anything the average user could want and more. At the point that I ever want to step up to full blown Crestron, the smart thing to do is hire a programmer or partner with a CAIP and spend my time selling the systems and letting them program. I just can't hire anyone right now. My plan is that Prodigy will be a tool to grow with. It is just so new that I don't know how that works just yet.

My experience has been that people are scared by automation. They think they won't be able to work anything. But I was describing Prodigy to someone the other day, talking about how the pmx3 could control the lights and tstats and get feedback as well, he thought it sounded cool. If I can get it to them at an attractive price, well........

Thanks Stamp, your input has given me a lot to think about. I'm still waiting on my demo system so I can't even play yet, but my direction is set much better.

G