Your Universal Remote Control Center
RemoteCentral.com
Crestron Control Systems Forum - View Post
Previous section Next section Previous page Next page Up level
Up level
The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:

Login:
Pass:
 
 

Page 1 of 4
Topic:
What's the possibility for a Crestron Prodigy-dedicated thread on this site?
This thread has 50 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Thursday July 29, 2010 at 11:47
NorCal AV
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
July 2010
30
I think this would be really helpful for a lot of us new SystemBuilder programmers. Opinions out there?

NorCal AV
Post 2 made on Thursday July 29, 2010 at 13:17
Control Remotes
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
August 2003
3,434
I think Remote Central would not only help installers by having threads for higher-end systems (Crestron, AMX, Elan, etc.), but ad revenue would be increased significantly and the number of end users who use these forums may be looking to hire some pros from here. Everyone could benefit a lot.



Thank you,
Damon
Remote Programming Services for URC Remotes
http://www.PremierAVDesigns.com - 914-509-5360
Follow me on Twitter @HomeTheaterNY
Post 3 made on Thursday July 29, 2010 at 13:35
longshot16
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
November 2009
3,442
Sounds like a great idea. I'd love to be able to reference different areas of SB or hardware specifics easily. Beats flipping through that super long thread started before Prodigy came out.
The Unicorn Whisperer
Post 4 made on Thursday July 29, 2010 at 14:06
Designermike
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
May 2007
274
It would be greatly appreciated if this could happen soon.
Crestron DMC-D
OP | Post 5 made on Thursday July 29, 2010 at 23:37
NorCal AV
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
July 2010
30
I agree. Hopefully the "powers-that-be" feel similar. It would seem that Systembuilder is Crestron "red-headed stepchild" in many ways. I was amazed at my training course at Crestron how few people [including the instructors] have a deep understanding of the program. Most are Simpl experts and just dont have a real need to involve themselves into the deeper levels of the program.

I can understand the reasoning since I'm sure 95% of their daily troubleshooting calls involve Simpl or Simpl+. So, that leaves it up to great forums like this [or the Crestron yahoo group] and us dealers willing to assist each other during these times.

BTW, I've got 5 years experience designing and overseeing the integration of high-end Crestron systems working for another integration firm. We always had either an in-house or 3rd-party programmer come in to do the programming. Well, now that I'm on my own, I'm wearing multiple hats, including Prodigy programming. It's been a very humbling experience. I can only imagine what dealers with no exposure to Crestron must be going through. 3 systems now under my belt and each time it gets easier. However, it's been an "experience." Lol.

I think that a dedicated place to share our experiences and ideas would be extremely helpful in dealing with a software program that doesn't get the same level of attention as others in its broader family.
Post 6 made on Friday July 30, 2010 at 06:32
Gman-north
Select Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2009
2,243
Guys,

Respectfully, I think the full line Crestron dealers would have issue with this. We are still ticked with Crestrons decision to open the line up to everyone and anyone. Given our investment in blood, sweat, tears and money, I am reluctant to give up any indepth experience and expertise, especially on a public forum.

To be fair, I understand your growing pains. It is a very difficult process to learn Crestron programming, even Systembuilder but if you are serious about learning, then you need to put in the time on the yahoo forum, tech support and onsite troubleshooting just as we did.

I have no problem chiming in on general enquiries here and I do ask alot of general questions. Any major issues that I need answered, I go to the source and in this case, it's Crestron Tech support!
Post 7 made on Friday July 30, 2010 at 07:00
RobSmit
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
May 2010
26
As a starting Prodigy programmer myself I would very happy with such thread.

I worked 4 months to learn the system (including SIMPL / SIMPL+) but with such a complex system, no one can know it all. It would be great to have a place to share.

For Prodigy to become truly affordable but still deliver reasonable advanced systems, we need to cut down on the programming & debug time. System Builder could be a time saver for many small projects, but so far there are still too many limitations (and related workarounds) to make development with SB really efficient. Sharing workarounds would be welcome step.
The next version of my control software will be so great, it will control the world! Or maybe not, in that case wait for the update which should come really soon.
Post 8 made on Friday July 30, 2010 at 10:12
Designermike
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
May 2007
274
On July 30, 2010 at 06:32, Gman-north said...
Guys,

Respectfully, I think the full line Crestron dealers would have issue with this. We are still ticked with Crestrons decision to open the line up to everyone and anyone. Given our investment in blood, sweat, tears and money, I am reluctant to give up any indepth experience and expertise, especially on a public forum.

To be fair, I understand your growing pains. It is a very difficult process to learn Crestron programming, even Systembuilder but if you are serious about learning, then you need to put in the time on the yahoo forum, tech support and onsite troubleshooting just as we did.

I have no problem chiming in on general enquiries here and I do ask alot of general questions. Any major issues that I need answered, I go to the source and in this case, it's Crestron Tech support!

Gman-north respectfully you guys need to GET OVER IT things are changing...have changed if you don't want to give any in depth experience DON'T, you guys were pissed that Crestron is selling through A**d and complaining about tech support being bombarded with guys that didn't know what they were getting into selling crestron ...now your advocating that we jam tech support with all inquires. We are putting in the time, some of us are members of the other forums including crestron yahoo groups, but there is limited info as it relates to system builder on yahoo it takes forever to get a response for anything that's not related to SIMPL, or SIMPL+

The industry is changing I'm not a B&W Dealer but I'm just as upset as the next integrator that they are in Best Buy Magnolia. I just read that they are dropping 75% of there dealers ( the guys that supported them), Martin Logan is in distribution, Crestron in distribution, Savant is putting out press releases stating that the iPad is the end of selling high-end touch panels and the future for automation...uniformed customers believe it which makes my job harder selling a RTI T2-C for 1,400.00 programmed (no processor) or a prodigy PTX3 or any touchscreen for that matter that's more than a 599.00 iPad.
Crestron DMC-D
Post 9 made on Friday July 30, 2010 at 10:52
sofa_king_CI
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
June 2009
4,230
While I understand where the full line dealers are coming from. I signed up with Prodigy when it first came out. This was going to be my door into a protected line, to compete with small C4 and replace my RTI jobs. THen just as I start to learn how to even implement it. It gets released to AVAD.

Strange C4 is now more protected than Crestron, IMO.

OH WELL. I have to just move on. I would appreciate a SB thread. There are some people here, including Gman, that have helped me a ton as well as on IP. That said, there seems to only be a few Dealers/Programmers that really work with SB. The Yahoo Group is very hard to get SB support on.

I would like to see the section open, if nothing else for newbs like me to start working together and improve on our craft.
do wino hue?
Post 10 made on Friday July 30, 2010 at 14:46
cgav
Select Member
Joined:
Posts:
September 2009
1,568
I was amazed at my training as well how little my instructor knew about it. I was like, "does no one here have any real experience with one of these sytems?"

After teaching myself for the last 4 months, I was MILES AND MILES ahead of that 3-day prodigy class. I enjoyed the last day, but even 80% of that day was a re-hash. No real knowledge from them at all about how to program it outside of their composer/systembuilder "sandbox". Luckily with help from Motech and a few others, I have come a long way with it. I fell like I can handle a prodigy system to it's limitations. My instructor said it was not possible to program a system with 2 - 5.1 receiver zones. I was like that's interesting, I have done 2 in the last month. It's not easy and it's basically hacking/reverse engineering. I was hoping to learn more advanced skills where I could get to the finish line without a lot of detours.

The other programmer I was at class with even used the red-headed stepchild statement. It was easy to see the contempt in the tone/delivery of the instructor.
Post 11 made on Saturday July 31, 2010 at 14:27
39 Cent Stamp
Elite Member
Joined:
Posts:
May 2007
17,515
I started with Application Builder many years ago and then moved to System Builder when Crestron switched. I went thru the same thing you new guys went thru. Hard to find help at the yahoo group. Hard to even get help at Crestron because there aren't that many System Builder techs i guess.

This is what i can tell you from experience... You are wasting your time with wizard programming. All of the energy you are putting in to learning it will be worthless because you will reach a point where you simply cant do what you need to in System Builder and you will have to use a real programmer. What i mean is that as your skills improve and you do bigger and better jobs you wont be able to hack trick and work around to get what you want to have happen. Its not like with RTI where once you reach the end you have a valuable and complete skill set. With System Builder you reach the end and your still miles away from where you need to be.

If you plan to be the programmer then hire someone else to handle sales and installation and whatever and start taking classes. 15 year Crestron programmers are still taking classes. Its a full time job. If you plan to be the sales guy then outsource programming until you need to hire one. What you guys dont want to do is hand your clients a Crestron System that operates like an RTI system. This is what at least half the Crestron dealers do and its one of the reasons you hear nonsensical statements in the forums like "RTI or control4 can do anything Crestron can".

A good Crestron programmer can open up the sandbox and give you access to all of the available features. With System Builder i used to have 10 VTPro files for the same model touchpanel in a single system. I would have to go in and edit/trick/work around every menu in every file. When you skip the wizard programming you have 1 single VTPro file that you load to every touchpanel. Your working in separate applications and not waiting for everything to compile everytime you make a single change. And most importantly.. you can finally get answers to your questions because you are using the software that everyone else is using.
Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 12 made on Saturday July 31, 2010 at 16:17
Gman-north
Select Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2009
2,243
Bump
Post 13 made on Saturday July 31, 2010 at 16:28
sofa_king_CI
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
June 2009
4,230
On July 31, 2010 at 14:27, 39 Cent Stamp said...
With System Builder you reach the end and your still miles away from where you need to be.

What you guys dont want to do is hand your clients a Crestron System that operates like an RTI system.

I agree and disagree. Yes you reach the end of System builder and you are still miles away from what you CAN do, but not necessarily what you need for many jobs. Prodigy alone is very powerful and can be treated like an RTI 2-way system with a few extra perks and can all be done within System Builder AND be very competitive in terms of price.

The argument of C4/RTI whatever can do the same thing, is sometimes true, but the only benefit was the same thing for less $$, with Prodigy that isn't always the case. Along those same lines, a Prodigy client is the type of client that has room in the budget for advanced programming features.

So, IMO, a System Builder group is essential for guys like me that are working with Prodigy and maybe some Adagio Systems. I look at Adagio at for the same money I could have replaced my Denon 3808, XP8 & Niles ICS system with a Crestron System. By using SB, I could offer the SAME level of functionality and at pretty close to the same price, BUT have tons of options to expand, at which point, a SIMPL programmer would likely be needed.

I don't think learning SB is a waste of time at all, its essential for the small and cookie cutter custom jobs. Especially for those of us that don't qualify for any other level of training.

Just KNOW that SB is only a fraction of what is truly possible. But not everything possible should always be sold.
do wino hue?
Post 14 made on Saturday July 31, 2010 at 17:25
ILO
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
August 2006
416
On July 31, 2010 at 16:28, sofa_king_CI said...
By using SB, I could offer the SAME level of functionality and at pretty close to the same price, BUT have tons of options to expand, at which point, a SIMPL programmer would likely be needed.

When you reach the point of requiring a SIMPL/VTPRO programmer because of the need for more customized automation, you'll find it doesn't make sense to use the existing System Builder code as a starting point. It can be done. However, the new code generally cannot be added elegantly and you will not be able to modify the new configuration using system builder again.

For these reasons I agree with Stamp. If a Prodigy or Adagio system will ever out grow it's Wizard or System Builder programming, the original program should be created using SIMPL/VTPROE from the start for a more supportable, predictable and professional result.
Post 15 made on Saturday July 31, 2010 at 18:21
39 Cent Stamp
Elite Member
Joined:
Posts:
May 2007
17,515
On July 31, 2010 at 16:28, sofa_king_CI said...
I agree and disagree. Yes you reach the end of System builder and you are still miles away from what you CAN do, but not necessarily what you need for many jobs. Prodigy alone is very powerful and can be treated like an RTI 2-way system with a few extra perks and can all be done within System Builder AND be very competitive in terms of price.

My argument is that a good programmer will be able to beat you on price because he is more efficient. Lets say you spend 10 hours total programming with system builder. A CAIP can do the same programming in 3 hours.

So right now it seems like its worth it because you do the programming at night or on the weekends whatever to make it happen. But lets fast forward to 3 years from now when your average job is 30 or 40 hours of system builder programming and a CAIP can do it in 10 hours. What is your time worth? Are you going to be the programmer full time or are you going to focus on sales and running the business? My argument is that if your answer is "then we will hire a caip" then you should stop investing your time in System Builder right now and spend it generating leads or learning D-Tools.

I am drawing my conclusions after working with Crestron for 6 years straight. We have been dealers for more than a decade but we were doing mostly AMX/Phast back in the day. What happened was we spent 3 times as long at each job trying to do the programming ourselves. The imagined savings were spent 3 or 4 times over when you total up the initial installation and all of the drama dealing with the system every day after that.

And no big deal for those 1 room systems right? Except for the fact that our 10 year old 1 room systems were done in crestrons first wizard program which i cant even remember the name of now. You cant even run it simultaneously with application builder or system builder. So when we need to swap 1 component we have to rewrite the whole program and woops.. they dont have the ST-1500 in the interface data base anymore so what do we do? Then our 6 year old systems are in application builder which.. you guessed it.. is not compatible with system builder and no longer supported so those all had to be rewritten. And any current/small systems are written in System Builder. I know Crestron thinks that System Builder is here to stay and the program is fine but my money is on them replacing it with something else causing this same sort of thing to happen allover again.

I understand the reasoning behind using it because we used it for the same reasons. Things cost what they cost. What happens is instead of you hiring a CAIP and billing the client for the 3 hours of programming now.. you eat the 10 hours + trying to do it yourself in System Builder. And.. every time that system gets upgraded you have to go back to that System Builder file to edit it.

The argument of C4/RTI whatever can do the same thing, is sometimes true, but the only benefit was the same thing for less $$, with Prodigy that isn't always the case. Along those same lines, a Prodigy client is the type of client that has room in the budget for advanced programming features.

C4 and RTI haven't reached 50% of Crestrons capabilities. But i agree that for a large number of systems it doesnt matter because those additional bells and whistles are not something they are interested in if it will significantly grow the budget.

What i was getting at is that when you compare 2 crestron systems with identical hardware.. installed by different firms.. 1 with System Builder and 1 with simpl. The simpl programmed system will knock the socks completely off of the other system without a significant increase in programming labor. So what happens is that your client gets a more feature rich system for the same price as his buddy.

So, IMO, a System Builder group is essential for guys like me that are working with Prodigy and maybe some Adagio Systems. I look at Adagio at for the same money I could have replaced my Denon 3808, XP8 & Niles ICS system with a Crestron System. By using SB, I could offer the SAME level of functionality and at pretty close to the same price, BUT have tons of options to expand, at which point, a SIMPL programmer would likely be needed.

I am not arguing against a System Builder forum. I am just saying that you guys, especially you business owners.. need to look at things long term. We went thru what your going thru but we have a 6 year head start. Your time is better spent increasing your knowledge of engineering crestron systems and running the day to day operations of your business. If the sales guy is doing the programming then no one is making sales.

I don't think learning SB is a waste of time at all, its essential for the small and cookie cutter custom jobs. Especially for those of us that don't qualify for any other level of training.

What i was saying is that you shouldn't take any of the training. You should partner with a programmer. An hour on the phone with a good programmer is more valuable then 2 weeks of training. Those guys have worked with everything you are about to sell and they can tell you whats reality and whats marketing hype. They know what 3rd party products are needed so that the holovision intercom chime rings over the DA system. They know what your options are when you want to give your client caller ID on the touchpanel.
Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Find in this thread:
Page 1 of 4


Jump to


Protected Feature Before you can reply to a message...
You must first register for a Remote Central user account - it's fast and free! Or, if you already have an account, please login now.

Please read the following: Unsolicited commercial advertisements are absolutely not permitted on this forum. Other private buy & sell messages should be posted to our Marketplace. For information on how to advertise your service or product click here. Remote Central reserves the right to remove or modify any post that is deemed inappropriate.

Hosting Services by ipHouse