Looks like this guy: [Link: ebay.com]

WOAH. Seems like a great deal!

Let me guess, ILLEGAL? lol

I was disagreeing with your conclusion that because smaller developers have more to lose, they produce protection schemes that are harder to crack. Microsoft's and Abobe's protection schemes are the most complex and robust in existence. They have to be, because they're highly desired products. But they HAVE been cracked - because of the sheer amount of attention focused on cracking their schemes. The fact that running cracked versions of recent Microsoft and Adobe products is such a massive chore is testament to how good their protection is at this point.

Shall we clear a few things up?

1. It is absolutely illegal for the developer of that website to be doing what he is doing. He is utilizing trademarked graphics and distributing copyrighted software that URC holds the sole distribution rights for.

2. He has created that website anonymously and is using the standard methods people get away from getting caught copyrighting movies, tv shows, games, and apps. It is using Peer-to-Peer technology so no one but the people downloading the software are actually even sending the file to anyone.

2.a. This is what makes the website in question illegal for you, as a user. When you download using torrents you are automatically UPLOADING to other users. Therefore, you will be distributing URC's Software without license to do so. This is very easy to track and this is why you often see people downloading a couple TV Shows getting caught instead of the person sending it to millions by recording and uploading the video initially.

3. Although there is no easy way to get ahold of the person who made the site, do not think that URC has sat idly by and done nothing. Cease & Desist letters were sent out as well as other legal documents to all parties involved with the site.

4. URC does not have strict policies against a dealer giving the programming software to their customers when needed. HOWEVER, distributing of the software to ANYONE ELSE is not allowed. Any dealer providing software to their end-users is required to make clear this policy.

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I didn't read every post so I am not sure how the discussion of Apple vs Microsoft came up, but I can assure you that URC is a much smaller company than those two.

URC's main goal has always been to provide products that have the reputation of giving high-quality, reliable hardware which is flexible enough to adapt to any system or situation.

Simply put, by standing behind & investing heavily in internationally-run training programs that train URC's Dealers that goal is easily met.

Bottom line, without the extensive training there is NO WAY that an efficiently built & operating "Control System" or "Automation System" will be built. Will you be able to get a "Universal Remote" working with the software (All manual control, no automated setup, etc)? Perhaps, but it is not what the product was meant to be or designed to be.

There are DIY solutions, for those customers that do not want to work with a professional integration and the hardware will save you by buying from the proper channel in the industry to your specific wants & needs. [Link: universalremote.com]

End of the day, purchase from a professional who is trained to not only know how to use the software but on how the system is put together, how features operate, how the products they installed/work with best handle specific macro sequences, etc.

Perhaps you could tell the dealer that you don't want to be tied down to them for every little change & update that you'd like to perform. Then ask them if they would be willing, as apart of the project (and for a fair extra fee), teach you the basics of making changes to the remote's programming. Sounds quite fair to me and I don't see many dealers arguing that - problem solved.

Now you have accomplished a few things

1. You have a brand new remote - WITH warranty
2. You didn't burn the bridge with the professional and can still call and work with them at any point if you get stuck on something (and of course pay them their fair fee)
3. You got the software and the dealer was happy to provide it
4. You at least got some training on how to use the software so you are DOING IT RIGHT!

Finally, someone who is making sense!

Thanks bradynapier

On the whole, I agree with what you're saying. But on this point you are simply incorrect.

No, I am more correct in that statement than any other. There are to many moving parts for an end-user who doesn't spend their life learning everything to understand... it's not just about turning on a tv anymore - especially with the introduction of smart tv's, multiple sources in things like dvd players, and more important IP Control.

Agreed. Thank you for pointing this out. While I also agree with Brady about the rest of his points, this one is just wishful thinking.

I've now dealt with two local URC authorized dealers and have zero problems stating that I am a more skilled CCP "programmer" than they are, and that's with my one or two months of experience just messing around with my own system. Not claiming to be an expert myself, and that in itself is the saddest part about it all. One of these guys said he has 15 years of experience programming URC remotes.

Even the pros on here talk about the terrible URC programming jobs they find at a new clients house that the previous CI did. I am sure many CIs know what they're doing, but so do many DIY people. It's ridiculous to think only a CI whose taken a class can properly program these things. Anyone with the most basic understanding of Boolean logic, variables, and how to use the Internet for help can setup their own system. Lets not forget that Best Buy's Geek Squad programs these things also; it's hardly a skill set that requires extensive training.

It's also lame to expect a customer to have to pay a dealer to be given a lesson on how to use CCP as part of the deal just to obtain a copy of the software. If I'm doing business with you and buying equipment from you, that should be reason enough for you to provide me with a copy of the software. I, and I'm sure many other DIYers, dont need to have our hands held to program a URC remote and don't need a CI to teach us. We shouldn't have to pay for a lesson that we don't need.

If you want to ensure a future revenue stream, keeping the software hostage is the worst thing you can do for yourself. The dealer who is upfront with me and is willing to provide the software with the sale is the one I will always go to in the future.

And if the customer doesn't know what they're doing, then feel free to charge them when they mess up their system. That's perfectly fair.

Brady, not all end users are as helpless as you seem to think they are. And not all URC dealers can actually program a macro, or even know how to use a simple variable.

Since you train many of these guys, I would think that you'd be the first to agree that not everyone that goes through your classes has the same skill level or will be able to achieve the same results in the field (no matter how good your training is).

There's plenty of variance on both sides and your one size fits all approach just doesn't apply in the real world.

I can concede to that point. Of course there are outliers on both sides of the spectrum.

Not all of them...but certainly most of them.

What i have found with most DIY's that i come in contact with is exactly what Brady described. They get it working but thats usually it. The more advanced the control system the worse it gets. Think $1mil crestron projects where most hardware was sourced online and programmed with System Builder.

Most of the DIY guys we know from the forums are the exception not the rule. Most of them know as much or more about URC/Crestron etc. because they are AV/Automation programmer-installers trapped in an _____________'s body. Fill that blank in with accountant, doctor, lawyer etc. The others think that stacking discreet commands is "all there is to it".


True story.

First, some background:
Although I've been designing user interfaces my whole career, I got my start in the home theater market because I received a programmable remote as a gift and, as I tend to do, went overboard trying to figure out ways to get the thing to do more than it was originally designed to do. I made a bit of a name for myself here on Remote Central by uploading my files for others to use as they saw fit. This brought me to URC's attention, and years later, I am the company's Product Design Manager.

So yes, I know that there are DIY people who can do excellent programming and setup of home theater systems. In fact, a DIYer can (and often does) devote hundreds of hours of exploration and programming into their own system. This is something that professionals can't do for purely economic reasons. Instead, professional installers develop a very different skill that few DIYers develop: they know how to produce really great results with a broad variety of equipment, in a fraction of the time a DIYer would take to produce the same result. Like anything, if you get training and years of experience on how to do something efficiently, you're going to be better at that than someone who's passionately doing the same thing for the 1st or 2nd time.

I help design these products and the software that programs them, but I can guarantee that in the time it would take me to program and install my own home theater setup, any trained and seasoned URC installer could program and install similarly complex theaters in ten homes, with equal or better results. And their cables would be far more organized than mine, to boot! They just do this way more than I do. They've learned all the tricks of the trade through training and repetition, and they've become masters at things that I merely know. That's what professionals do.

Consider this: A DIY car customizer can create incredible results with his own car, but put him in the BMW factory handcrafting cars to the exacting standards BMW expects and he would be lost because he's not trained or experienced enough to do that. Similarly, the factory employee probably doesn't have the specific skills to customize like the DIY guy. But that's okay. They have different goals, experience, and training, and most importantly, the expected end results are different.

So while it's true that dedicated DIYers are certainly more than capable of excellent results, it's also true that their goals and their means are different than those of a pro. DIY results can be stellar, but they're not the same kind of results professional installers need to produce. It's also true that the number of dedicated DIY installers and programmers is dwarfed by the professional installation market. URC, like any company, has to focus on meeting the needs of its market. Yes, meeting the needs of that market creates some roadblocks and annoyances for DIY customers, but that's not URC's goal. That's just a side effect of doing business in a way that meets the needs of the professional installation market.

URC holds no contempt for the DIY market. The fact that I started DIY and now design for the company is testament to that. I still love to tinker, but I've learned the needs of the professional market, and I design to their requirements, not what excites me personally. Similarly, if you're a DIY master, you have to be aware that the product line wasn't designed for your specific use needs. Conflicts about features and distribution are naturally going come about when you're using a product that was designed for some other market and you're trying to make it fulfill your requirements.

So in short, I see a simple conflict of goals here. No company wants to annoy people or fail to meet their expectations. But no company can meet every need with every product, every time. In our case, professional installers are the people who get our products into the hands of consumers, so we have to meet the needs of the installers so they have the tools, training, and experience to meet the needs of the end customer.

Well said Darni! Won't get to see ya at CEDIA this year (sister getting married) :-\ ENJOY!!!

How convenient...

Hah, I enjoy CEDIA! I wish I was going! I'm pissed! I even told my sister I couldn't at first haha... that didn't go over very well.